Skip to main content

View Diary: Wexler Pressing Cheney Impeachment Effort-NOW W/VIDEO! (228 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  But, land of the free.... (9+ / 0-)

    That's backwards thinking, and it's an invalid argument, logically.

    No prosecutor worth his/her salt would poll a jury BEFORE a trial to get a guilty or not guilty before a trial.  That would make the reason for evidence a moot point.

    Let the hearings commence.  Present the EVIDENCE, and only AFTER the evidence is presented should a jury (in this case, the House) vote on guilt or innocence.

    Conyers is a lawyer, is he not?  He should know that saying 'the votes aren't there' is an invalid argument.  Logically, it makes no sense whatsoever.

    (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

    by NonnyO on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 11:07:34 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  this isn't a prosecution with an impartial jury (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kaye, brenda

      this is political in nature.

      I don't like it, you don't like it, but it is what it is.

      If, in the private conversations amongst Representatives, Conyers hears that a vast majority will never support impeachment because they're too afraid of the consequences (and too damn afraid to stand up for the constitution and laws of our land), if perhaps Pelosi has her foot on Conyer's neck because she's too worried about political fallout of a failed attempt at impeachment, then he can't really proceed.

      I know that Conyers is very worried that if they were to start impeachment proceedings and fail, the congress would be lambasted in the corporate-controlled press. It would put the Democrats in worse shape for gaining more control of the legislature and possibly cause a problem for gaining the White House.

      It totally sucks, but I see his point. The deck is stacked against the Democrats. Everything they do accomplish is ignored by the media (and many Democrats), and everything that the Republicans obstruct is reported as a "failure of the Democrats". Why wouldn't an attempt at impeachment be warped into a bat used to whip the Democrats over the head?

      I don't know for a fact that Pelosi is the one with a leash on Conyers, but I've read & seen enough, plus talked with the Congressman briefly, to get the feeling that he's an angry dog who is chained. He's pissed, but he's been around long enough to know that this is one fight he can't win.

      I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

      by land of the free on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 11:15:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  But.... (9+ / 0-)

        Impeachment is NOT a "political" issue.  It's a constitutional issue.

        It only became political duing the Clinton impeachment.

        The Founding Fathers put impeachment in the Constitution to enable us to get rid of "leaders" unfit to hold office.

        (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

        by NonnyO on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 11:20:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  it is also inherently political (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kaye

          a regular jury of peers in a normal courtroom have no connection to the defendant. Their jobs aren't affected by the verdict they bring.

          While, in the pure sense, impeachment is a constitutional protection, it is silly to pretend that politics have never played a role before the ridiculous Clinton impeachment debacle. Those who take on the role of participating in impeachment proceedings are politicians, their words and actions will be noted and considered by their employers - the American people. And, their words and actions will be noted and considered by their colleagues in leadership positions within their political parties. It's not realistic to assume that political maneuvering doesn't play a significant role in impeachment.

          Yes, on paper, Conyers leads the House committee that can start impeachment. But, if Pelosi blocks his way, either he has to decide to try and fight her (which is relatively stupid if he doesn't have the votes to back him up in the House), or he has to continue to investigate and unearth more apparent crimes until he can get enough votes to support him - or, sadly, he can only bitch about how Bush and Cheney are criminals, and his colleagues don't have the courage and committment to the laws of our nation to support impeachment.

          Our outrage about this should be directed not at Conyers, but instead at the other members of the House who will not support impeachment.

          Impeachment has always been a political process. While it was highly politicized during the Clinton debacle, it was still designed to be a political process. If the founders had meant it to not have any political influence, they would have had the trial by a jury of regular Americans instead of Senators. Surely, they could not have let the AG bring the charges (as opposed to the House), since the AG is appointed by the President.

          I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

          by land of the free on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 02:32:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is time (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            victoria2dc, NonnyO

            to quit making excuses--any excuses--for this do-nothing nonsense.

            Your opinions and information are well-presented, and may very well have basis in history, but in the end, they unfortunately enable the criminals in our midst RIGHT NOW.

            The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

            The enabling has to stop.

            Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

            by o the umanity on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 06:32:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You say that I am enabling criminal behavior? (0+ / 0-)

              That is utterly ridiculous, and frankly insulting as hell.

              You are saying that I am enabling impeachable offenses simply by stating that impeachment is an inherently political process, and that Conyers hands seem to be tied by Pelosi? Give me a fucking break.

              Call your f*#&ing Congressional representatives and tell them to do their jobs. Don't accuse me of such things because I'm simply relaying Conyers' position, and I say that I understand where he's coming from (but, as I said many times, I don't like it whatsoever).

              I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

              by land of the free on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 10:05:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am sorry that you're insulted (0+ / 0-)

                and I understand that you don't like it.

                But to say "well, it's always been a political process" is an EXCUSE. It is.

                If your mileage varies, that's your misfortune. I have called and written and emailed and faxed my representatives until steam comes off my keyboard, out of my telephone and off my fingers. They're not listening.

                Conyers' position on this is bullshit. . If you "understand where he's coming from", then you enable the continuation of this crap by defending it. Sorry you disagree with that, but there it is.

                Reality leaves a lot to the imagination--John Lennon

                by o the umanity on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 07:09:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  ok, I get it now (0+ / 0-)

                  since your representatives aren't doing what you want, I'm an asshole for sharing what Conyers has said about this.

                  He's saying the same thing you're saying - and the same thing I'm saying. That too many OTHER members of Congress are sitting on their hands.

                  So I guess that makes you an enabler, too.

                  I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

                  by land of the free on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:54:55 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  p.s. how can the notion that (0+ / 0-)

                  "impeachment is an inherently political process" be an excuse for inaction? It isn't. It is a fact.

                  The impeachment process cannot be equally compared to the criminal law system. Those on the "jury" in impeachment are directly affected by the process and the verdict. Their professional futures are affected.

                  That was my point, but I guess you're too excited to beat up the messenger of something that is a basic fact.

                  I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

                  by land of the free on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 08:57:06 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  and that is what we intend to do (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          victoria2dc, land of the free, NonnyO

          through the Wexler petition.

          *a hundred years from now, the future may be different because I was important in the life of a child*

          by bonesy on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:41:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes, and I am supporting this move (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bonesy

            but I guess a lot of people don't understand the point I was trying to make.

            Conyers is saying that he's being prevented from proceeding.

            The only way to proceed is to stop calling Conyers a coward who won't defend the constitution. Put that energy toward the members of Congress who are not publically calling for impeachment. Sign Wexler's petition. Make sure your Congressional representatives are aware that you do not believe political convenience should be prioritized over flagrant infractions of the law.

            I remember a time when the American President was the leader of the free world. ****** Repeat after me: "Neoconservatism has failed America."

            by land of the free on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:11:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  the Wexler petition and the people (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      victoria2dc

      who sign it, are the Jury.

      *a hundred years from now, the future may be different because I was important in the life of a child*

      by bonesy on Thu Dec 27, 2007 at 04:39:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site