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View Diary: The Pope invokes medieval rhetoric, deploys exorcist squads (130 comments)

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  •  What about the possibility that (4+ / 0-)

    Benedict is maligning the religious beliefs of Christians, by asserting that Jesus would approve of his actions? I mean, really:

    You have to hunt high and low for a properly trained exorcist.

    I for one have a hard time respecting that kind of assertion. Sorry.

    As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

    by occams hatchet on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:15:05 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  You missed my point (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, YucatanMan, marykk

      Benedict isn't up for election by Amercian voters. This site is dedicated to getting Dems elected and maligning various religious sects ain't the way to do it.

      Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

      by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:21:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  By any means necessary? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quotefiend, YucatanMan

        We could adopt as our party platform the doctrine of papal inerrancy and see if we could get the Catholic Church to backhandedly endorse us the way the Republicans work the Robertson/Dobson crowd.

        The official position of the Catholic Church is at odds with a lot of what I believe and what my party has come to believe, sometimes through the repeated prodding of the liberal wing, which I am a proud member.

        It takes a lot more than just getting Dems elected, or we'd be bringing soldiers home since 2006 not sending more.

        Its sad and amazing that telling the truth about a religious sect and maligning it can be seen as the same thing.

        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

        by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 09:59:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  your rant would be pathetic (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marykk, Libertaria

          if it rose to the level of coherence.

          as it is, it's merely an exercise in hurling anti-Catholic slurs, grasping at concepts you obviously know little about and flinging them in a sad attempt to gain attention.

          What "official position of the Catholic Church" do you think you are talking about?

          Its sad and amazing that telling the truth about a religious sect and maligning it can be seen as the same thing.

          The Catholic Church is NOT a "religious sect."  And you wouldn't know "truth" if it bit you on your ass.

          "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

          by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:13:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There are two official positions... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quotefiend, YucatanMan

            ...that are very important to me that I find at odds with our party--or at least where our party has been of late.

            One is a woman's right to choose, the other is the church's position on homosexuality.

            My use of "religious sect" was in response to:

            This site is dedicated to getting Dems elected and maligning various religious sects ain't the way to do it.

            but strictly speaking, I don't see a problem with describing Catholics as a sect of Christianity, or even as a sect of "Catholic" religions, including Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodoxm etc. A religious sect is a group that has split from another group, and that is certainly true for Roman Catholics, though we most often use sect to describe much smaller groups.

            I see a whole lot of bile and personal attack in your response, and not a lot of substantive objections.

            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

            by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:26:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I see a whole lot of ignorance (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Caj, xanthe

              in your writing.

              I see a whole lot of bile and personal attack in your response, and not a lot of substantive objections.

              You betcha there's bile in my responses; I will not sit quietly and have you malign Catholicism, particularly as you do not know what you are talking about.

              As for my responses lacking "substantive objections," you write something as nonsensical as this and accuse me of lacking substance??

              If rhetoric is dangerous... ...then the pope's rhetoric that attempts to deny salvation to people to compel them to believe and act as he does is far more dangerous than some comment posted on dKos.
              The pope doesn't need bombers or nukes to instill fear and hatred. The fact he doesn't have them is insignificant.

              sheesh, where to start?

              1. Where in the article cited does the pope use rhetoric that would "deny salvation to people to compel them" to do ANYTHING?

               Popes don't "grant" or "deny" salvation; you gots ta save yerself, honeychile, no one's gonna do your savin' work for you. Is that what's got you so feared up?

              1. Where are you getting this "instilling fear and hatred" screed?  Nothing in the article or the diary says anything about fear and hatred; the article cited is about evil in the world and the pope's reflection that people should be taught to pray for the strength to resist it or remove it --kinda like having a virus control and spyware removal tool.  Perhaps you are projecting "fear and hatred;" fear and hatred certainly are not in any way discussed or incited by the Pope's counsel that people should be aware that evil is a concrete force in the world.
              1.  

              "The pope doesn't need nukes or bombers to instill fear and hatred.  The fact that he doesn't have them is insignificant."

              The NIE reported that Iran was not developing nuclear weapons but Israel wants to attack Iran anyway because Israel "fears and hates" Iran because Iran sends money to Palestinians to resist Israel's aggression.  
              The same logic seems to apply to your statement.  You say, The pope doesn't have nukes and bombers but that's insignificant; in effect, you're saying, it doesn't matter what the pope has or says, you intend to hate him.

              We've already concluded that nothing the pope said in the diary/article indicates the pope's agenda is to 'instill fear and hatred,' so your statement is balloon juice. There's nothing left of it.  

              No substantive objections.  But substantially objectionable.

              "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

              by Orpheus on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:52:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  yet more "othering"... (0+ / 0-)

            you seem to practice that against which you preach.

            BTW, a "sect" is anyone else's religion.  Much like MY religion is THEIR myth...

            My admiration of the Catholic church comes from countless small pueblos I've seen where the churches are adorned with gold, plump friars enjoying life while the people, literally poor as dirt, scraping to get a morsel to eat. The inherent evil in denying birth control to people unable to feed themselves, let alone another child is just as evil as dropping bombs on people.

            The Roman Catholic Church is not catholic, i.e. all-encompassing or universal.  There are even many varieties of "Catholics", let alone all the other types of Christians in the world.

            The word sect comes from the Latin sects (from sequire to follow), meaning (1) a course of action or way of life, (2) a behavioural code or founding principles, (3) a specific philosophical school or doctrine. ... A sectator is a loyal guide, adherent or follower.

        •  Red herring (0+ / 0-)

          And false choice. Avoiding maligning a religion is not the same as endorsing its platform. Simple enough for you?

          Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

          by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:23:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That red herring comment (0+ / 0-)

            was directed to PCBLiberal.

            I don't see you maligning Islam. Does that mean your endorsing its platform. Do you understand the distinction now?

            Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

            by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:26:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I see you changing the subject (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Quotefiend, YucatanMan, a gnostic

              This is about the pope. There is a serious debate raging among conservative catholics over whether politicians who do not vote in accordance with church policy should be excommunicated for their votes.

              When the diary is about Islam and a powerful imam who holds sway over a fairly large population of adherents in this country, and similar issues are raised you will see me maligning the way Islam is practiced by that imam and its effect on our government.

              I am not maligning Christianity, I'm maligning the actions of the theoretically infallible head of a sect of that religion. For somebody trying to point out distinctions, you don't seem astute at recognizing them yourself.

              And while we're on the subject of reading and comprehension, its PBCliberal.

              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

              by PBCliberal on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:35:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Since ballots are secret (0+ / 0-)

                how would they be excommunicated for their vote?

                I'm no expert on Catholicism but I would think that "conservative" Catholics would consider the Pope infallible and not "theoretically" so. Or maybe you could give me your definition of "conservative Catholic."

                You still haven't answered my point that not maligning a religion is not the same as endorsing its platform.

                Unfortunately our politicians are either incompetent or corrupt. Sometimes both on the same day--Woody Allen

                by Libertaria on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 10:41:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sources please, for the 'raging debate' (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                xanthe

                There is a serious debate raging among conservative catholics over whether politicians who do not vote in accordance with church policy should be excommunicated for their votes.

                "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

                by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:20:21 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Try... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  YucatanMan

                  excommunication.net for starters. I've followed the story in the MSM so that is not my source, but a simple web search yielded this.

                  I bet a little web searching would yield lots more. Let me know if you continue to have trouble.

                  Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. -- Groucho Marx

                  by PBCliberal on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 01:58:11 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  "Isn't up for election"? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PBCliberal, Quotefiend, YucatanMan

        Neither are healthcare insurance companies, arms manufacturers, televangelists who solicit gay escorts for meth, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Chinese toy companies, Exxon Mobil, or Archer Daniels Midland. So I guess we'd better not discuss any of them, either.

        I'm sure I've forgotten some.

        As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. - Justice William O. Douglas

        by occams hatchet on Fri Dec 28, 2007 at 11:30:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  the difference is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne

          healthcare insurance companies, arms manufacturers, televangelists...., Rush & Coulter, Chinese toy companies, Exxon, and ADM are directly implicated in issues important to the American electorate.

          The Pope's counsel that there is evil in the world, that the abstract concept "evil" is 'reified' by attaching to it the concrete image of 'devil' or 'Satan,' and that people should be taught to pray to resist the forces of evil or to remove them if they are affected by evil, is a spiritual counsel to people who share a bond of spiritual community.  It's not a political issue, it's not a Democratic issue, it's not a Republican issue, it's not an American issue.  It's a conversation between the pope and the people he leads.

          "Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offense....[will] learn ...what huge imago made a psychopathic god." -W H Auden

          by Orpheus on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:02:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I must say Orpheus - to you (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ahianne, marykk

            and Libertaria - it's a lost cause.  Don't bother really.  I usually don't read these diaries and don't comment.  Why now?  maybe because it's 4 am.

            There is much wrong with the Church - it is a human endeavor as well as a divine one after all.

            But as a practicing Catholic, I thank you both for your thoughtful comments.  The Church has lasted a long time -

            What's the plan? The plan is I go in and start hitting people in the face hard. (Angel, from the Series)

            by xanthe on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:25:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

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