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  •  Maybe it got diaried already (3+ / 0-)

    But this is the biggest story in (higher) education of recent weeks.

    The second biggest didn't get any attention either, which I find somewhat surprising.

    Ortiz/Ramírez '08

    by theran on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 10:45:25 AM PST

    •  I've been disappointed at the lack of education.. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, Runs With Scissors

      ...of educationally-related diaries lately.  One can, for instance, note that there were absolutely none on the 27th (I was wondering if there were a flaw in Search).

      I am told it will get better after the primaries.  I have some doubt about that.

      Robyn

      •  I agree (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cfk, rserven, Runs With Scissors

        To tell you the truth, even science policy gets no discussion here except when non-scientists discuss stem cells, evolution, and immigration.

        When there is a subprime student loan meltdown, and the NSF is a memory, people will wonder how nobody saw it coming.  (At least there are all these ``Career in Europe'' job fair things I get solicitations for...)

        Ortiz/Ramírez '08

        by theran on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 10:57:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Horse-race politics versus education policies (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, rserven

      Was there any doubt?

      Heck, this is a left-leaning site full of educated people.  Put up a Patriots-Giants open thread.  Tell me it wouldn't hit the rec list, the top of the rec list, in a manner of minutes.

      Hunter S. Thompson wrote, "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." I want to know who has been getting my checks all these years.

      by algebrateacher on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:39:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Jan., 2008 NEAToday: "Are soaring student loans (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran, rserven

        scaring off tomorrow's teachers?"

        I think it was a Feminisms that brought up this Harvard thing a few weeks ago.  What stood out for me more than anything else was the concept of "middle class" including people earning $120,000 to $180,000.

        As a veteran teacher earning less than $75,000, I hate that someone might not consider me to be middle class but, instead, something else entirely.  Ew.

        I recall, years ago mind you, telling someone that I was a graduate of the University of California.  That person then asked, "Then why did you become a teacher?"  I was supposed to do more than that, of course.

        Oh, my first comment:  matter...of minutes, not manner.  Proofreading is.

        Hunter S. Thompson wrote, "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." I want to know who has been getting my checks all these years.

        by algebrateacher on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 12:56:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you make 180,000, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          algebrateacher, rserven

          then you will be borrowing money to pay $50k tuition for your kids.  This is very middle class.  (Approximately, middle class people look at prices, rich people don't.  There's a broad range.)

          Anyway, universities are going to have to get a handle on two things: (1) our main customers are big borrowers; (2) our other main customers are experiencing a liquidity crisis.

          My personal feeling about why it doesn't get much in the way of discussion is that there are a bunch of uncomfortable topics that come up.

          Ortiz/Ramírez '08

          by theran on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 01:39:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So with $90,000 (my money plus wife's disability) (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theran, rserven

            I will borrow to pay for the $25,000 it will take to send my eldest to the University of California, what's meant to be a very middle class action here in California.  Well, maybe upper middle class (whatever that is).  The California State Universities are for the middle class to send their kids to learn how to stay middle class; they cost significantly less.  Either way, I'm a public servant who will go into debt to send my child to a public university.

            This is what Harvard's, and all those others, are really doing: they can now recruit for "diversity" among students in the suburbs.  The rich will always be able to pay, after all.  The problem has been to recruit highly capable "diverse" students among the poor for whom they were willing to pay the whole ride.  I would guess that competition for these students is fierce and then retention of those students from day one to graduation requires financial, counseling and mentoring services.

            A really bright kid out of Santa Ana, California, named Martinez is going to be a fish out of water at Harvard.  Period.  With great effort and support, he or she will survive.

            On the other hand, with a big reduction in price, a really bright kid out of Irvine, California, named Chavez won't feel quite as alienated and is more likely to survive with less attention.

            If the reduction in price benefits a few kids named Fisher, Larson, Dulac or Czaja or Bernstein, so be it.  But that's not who it's for.

            I base my assumptions here on the ABC program (A Better Chance...fuck their attitude) that trolls junior high schools in disadvantaged areas for the top students to provide diversity to their private high schools.  It is the same coin.

            Hunter S. Thompson wrote, "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." I want to know who has been getting my checks all these years.

            by algebrateacher on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 02:34:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have no answers (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              algebrateacher, rserven, frosti

              I went to a public school, and didn't really pay very much after various grants and competitive things.  Then again, it wasn't Cal.

              All I know is that costs go up, research funding from the NSF goes down, and the gap gets closed by getting undergrads to pay more and grads/temps to take less.  Maybe it's not the same everywhere, but the administration here has been insisting that 18k (less ~$1000 in fees) is way too generous and that we need to give some back in our new contract.

              In the article I linked to, there was a quote from a Cal administrator that Harvard's move would put pressure on the state to restore some funding.

              Ortiz/Ramírez '08

              by theran on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 06:47:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I don't agree that you will have to borrow (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theran, rserven

            if your income is at this level.  You will have to forego other purchases, perhaps.  Especially if you don't get any tuition tax credit because you have to pay the alternative minimum tax.

            •  This is 25% of your salary (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              rserven

              50% if you have two kids.  I am not saying such people are in deep trouble or anything.  I am saying that 50k is awfully high.

              How much do you think college should cost?

              Ortiz/Ramírez '08

              by theran on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 03:31:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Much less, It is crazy expensive. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theran, rserven

                I am not saying it is easy to pay full price for college, but we did it with this approximate income.  And put money in our retirement fund (our only tax break).  I thought it was the best gift for my child to leave him without debt. Our cost was $46,000 annually. My biggest gripe was not having any deductions for our student like other people have, especially paying full price.  I had a hard time understanding where all the money is spent by the college.  Each class section was worth about $60,000, which the professor doesn't earn.  Where does it go?

                •  Real estate, sports, libraries, lab equipment (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rserven, frosti

                  Everything at a college or university is pretty expensive to run, though I am not an expert at this side of things.  Certainly costs aren't growing because of lots of new tenure-track hires.  (Ask anybody facing the job market now or contemplating it soon, like me.)

                  Ortiz/Ramírez '08

                  by theran on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 06:40:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I should also say (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rserven

                  That I have this theory that it is all about real estate.  Universities manufacture basically three products: credentials/training for undergrads; research and PhDs for grads; sports entertainment.

                  The exact nature of the first is rather opaque, and it depends a lot on the reputation of the institution.  This, in turn, seems to be largely based on how it looks.  Well-known researchers add cachet, but they need to bring in grants to actually do anything.  Winning teams do too, but they are hit and miss.  This leaves really nice facilities as a surefire way to make your school more attractive to your admissions department's favorite candidates.

                  So, if I was to guess why tuition is so high, I would say that when your two main selling points are that students get taught by big shots and really nice facilities, you are going to be running an expensive operation.  As to whether these are absolutely crucial, I can't say, though I benefitted a lot from the first at a public research school as an undergrad.

                  Then again, you have to realize that I work in geometry and algorithms... lol.

                  Ortiz/Ramírez '08

                  by theran on Sat Dec 29, 2007 at 06:54:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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