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View Diary: Another JAG Officer Resigns Over Bush Torture Policy (287 comments)

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  •  Death is unavoidable. (5+ / 0-)

    Forgetfulness is avoidable.

    Sad, but true.  Forced to chose, I chose amnesty.  But I will continue to clamor for justice:  reparations for war crimes, and persecution of war criminals to the fullest extent of the law.

    The United States tortures. Now what?

    by Yellow Canary on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:23:12 AM PST

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    •  I can't say that you're wrong, YC (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yellow Canary, Matt Z

      But reading Tutu's No Future Without Forgiveness has had a profound effect on my reasoning.

      My fear is that it will play out like this: Cheney, Inc. digs in its heels, the Dems and others will be too scared to follow up, no matter how loud we yell, and thus the whole monstrous business gets shoved down into the darkness of our national Id-- just as we've done before-- ensuring that we will do so again.

      I'm only trying to find a way to change the calculus and, hopefully, the outcome.

      The opposite of 'liberal' isn't 'conservative', its 'authoritarian'.

      by kingubu on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:40:00 AM PST

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      •  I just don't know. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wonmug, farleftcoast, kingubu, Matt Z, Scubaval

        The situations are quite different (those who suffered under Apartheid couldn't vote, among much that is different).  Non-Republican-Americans have much more to lose -- and much less to gain -- than non-white South Africans had.

        And the parties were rather easy to tell apart.

        I am willing to forgive Republicans for supporting war crimes committed by war criminals they worked to elect.  I am willing to forgive armed service members who were lied to.  I do not yet find it in me to forgive those who ordered war crimes and crimes against humanity to be committed.

        The biggest difference is, imho, that Apartheid was ended.  The criminality that today defines the Republican Party will not end with forgiveness or amnesty -- it will simply count it's money, and bide it's time with whores and minor strong-arming until it seizes (or creates) another opportunity.

        The goal is to end the commitment of war crimes and crimes against humanity by those funded by the taxes collected by the United States.  I don't see any Truth and Reconciliation commission bringing us any closer to that goal.

        The United States tortures. Now what?

        by Yellow Canary on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:58:11 AM PST

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        •  I do think it moves us closer. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gary Norton, Yellow Canary

          Its true that apartheid had officially ended, but the abusive structures and badge-wearing criminals who committed the worst abuses were still in place; still, in many cases, respectable members of society.

          In a way, the TRC wasn't really about apartheid; it was about the invisible, extra-legal system of state-sanctioned murder and torture that was justified in the name of apartheid. The torture and murder perpetrated against "terrorists" were not officially part of the law so changing the law wouldn't never have brought them to an end.

          What did bring them to an end was seeing respected members of the Security Police confess their involvement. In many cases, even the the SP's families didn't even know that dad was off torturing and killing "terrorists" when the sun went down. It made the truth undeniable. It forced the nation to look itself in the eye in a way that couldn't be written off by the Afrikaners as "victor's justice".

          That's what I'm hoping for here.

          The opposite of 'liberal' isn't 'conservative', its 'authoritarian'.

          by kingubu on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 12:23:09 PM PST

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          •  Thanks for the comments ... (3+ / 0-)

            ... I understand and can support the idea now.

            I think it will have to be a massive truth-telling.  We need "undeniable truth" not only from the bullies with electrodes and waterboards, but also from the psychologists who helped hone torture techniques, from the doctors who helped keep victims alive to be tortured anew, from the generals who arranged it, from the pilots who flew secret missions, from the mechanics who kept their planes working, from the concrete workers who helped build the black sites, from the upper level generals who ran them, and of course from the President and Vice President of the United States who ordered torture.

            And then we can move on to the war of aggression committed by the war criminals George Walker Bush and Richard Bruce Cheney.

            And along the way perhaps we will find out where all our money has gone.

            The United States tortures. Now what?

            by Yellow Canary on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 12:39:06 PM PST

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      •  Nothing to figure out... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NonnyO, Randgrithr

        ...the calculus or Nuremberg precedence already exists. It's all a matter of how long the rest of the world will sit idly by while we muster the courage, guts, and determination to right our own ship of state. The universe tries to stay in equilibrium at all times. The pendulum swings, as it were. This tyranny cannot stand. Either we will end it on our own, or the world will end it for us. It's that simple.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 02:33:56 PM PST

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        •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Either we will end it on our own, or the world will end it for us. It's that simple.

          The only thing that surprises me is that someone hasn't done a pre-emptive strike against us as the most dangerous threat to world peace already.  If we don't right the ship of state on or before election day '08 (with impeachment proceedings, at the very least, and punishment for the war criminals after that), the future does not look bright for us....


          by NonnyO on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 06:48:39 PM PST

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