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View Diary: Another JAG Officer Resigns Over Bush Torture Policy (287 comments)

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  •  If the victims of these criminals (6+ / 0-)

    were primarily Americans, we would have the right to seek "truth and reconciliation"... and to consider that sufficient. But the victims - in their millions - were citizens of a country we invaded and occupied illegally.

    And unlike South Africa, we have a Constitution that guarantees not truth, not reconciliation, but equal justice under the law.  I'm not ready to concede yet that The Constitution is "just a piece of paper."

    www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

    by chuckvw on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:26:13 AM PST

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    •  Justice is only justice when... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chuckvw

      ... it includes some form of punishment?

      I'm not trying to be obtuse, only trying to see things from your POV.

      The opposite of 'liberal' isn't 'conservative', its 'authoritarian'.

      by kingubu on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:31:38 AM PST

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      •  The rule of law (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kingubu, NonnyO

        requires adjudication.  The punishment phase of the process is almost irrelevant in that respect, although there are probably many Iraqis, Gitmo prisoners and Muslim Americans who would take exception to that.

        More important than the personal fates of the busheviks, is the survival of the idea that America is a nation of laws.

        Aside from that, yes, I think these murdering bastards deserve punishment.  Apartheid was a system in which tens of thousands of South Africans, several generations of South Africans were complicit.  A totally different situation.

        www.bushwatch.net - Kicking against the pricks since '98!

        by chuckvw on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:45:18 AM PST

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        •  Its different, that's true. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chuckvw, Lesser Dane

          But there are parallels and I think the TRC model fits better than the Nuremberg model.

          And let me be clear, I'm not suggesting that we merely throw the law and the constitution aside. Amnesty means amnesty from prosecution under those laws, and would only be granted on a case-by-case basis, in exchange for full disclosure. Evidence given in amnesty-protected testimony would be used in prosecutions against those who refused to come clean.

          The opposite of 'liberal' isn't 'conservative', its 'authoritarian'.

          by kingubu on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:58:23 AM PST

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      •  When you break the law... (0+ / 0-)

        ...the LAW requires a penalty or "the payment of a debt to society". It's really quite clear to me. Bush has violated several domestic and international laws, which are THE LAWS OF THE LAND under our Constitution: The 1996 War Crimes Act makes it a WAR CRIME to violate either/or the Nuremberg Protocols and the Geneva Conventions General Article III, as well as several other war criminal codes I don't have at my fingertips right now.

        So even IF he escapes the World Court at the Hague, he is still in violation of our domestic laws. Congress has been complicit, they have been derelict in carryong-out their sworn oaths to defend the Constitution and uphold the law, as well as every appointed or elected FEDERAL OFFICER who holds their office in disobeyance of the law!

        They are just as guilty as he is in the eyes of the law!

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 02:44:44 PM PST

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        •  US Code, War Crimes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ImpeachKingBushII, Fallon

          US Code, Title 18 has to do with war crimes.

          (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

          by NonnyO on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 06:52:00 PM PST

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          •  Thanks Nonny, got it! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NonnyO

            "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

            by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 06:57:12 PM PST

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            •  :-) (0+ / 0-)

              Velbekomme!

              I've posted the link many times, as have many others, along with the links for the Nuremberg Judgment, Geneva Conventions, the Constitution and Bill of Rights.  :-)  Google is our friend!  :-)  I just couldn't find the document with the links to all of them quickly, so replied with the info off the top of my head.

              The most encouraging thing about our most valuable historical and legal documents is the fact that they are written in elementary English and are easy to understand.  They are not written in any convoluted and mangled legalese like the current "lawyers" who work with Dickie and Georgie in their "legal judgments," but are clearly worded, actually elegant in their simplicity.

              (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

              by NonnyO on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 07:12:12 PM PST

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