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View Diary: My response to Susan G (185 comments)

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  •  What I find funny ... (14+ / 0-)

    is that although I'm still undecided, I'm definitely a Hillary leaner. Could go either way though, still.

    I was not addressing the wisdom of the delegate stripping, like Markos was, nor the probability of whether those delegates will be seated or not.

    I was questioning the timing of her sudden realization that she owes it to those states' voters to  stand up for them.

    •  Ah well, can't really have it all, can you :P n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Having it both ways: Wage a scorch the earth campaign to win a primary, and expect the people who live on that scorched earth to vote for you after.

      by bhagamu on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:27:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's Politics Susan (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SaneSoutherner

      Hillary intends to win.

      Clinton / Obama Edwards for Attorney General

      by NewHampster on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:28:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  timing.... ok, but HRC doesn't speak before she (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kredwyn

      thinks things through, and through and through. That's the one thing against her. Most everything she does is deliberate, so we over analyze why. Her timing would have been questioned if she came out immediately after Florida was stiped of it's dem delegates. FL has always been an HRC state.

      Maybe, and I'm speaking as a Floridian here, she thinks what the FL GOP (the majority of the state houses) did to the democratic minority was too neatly contrived? Markos thought so. Maybe HRC agreed with Markos? Anything's possible.

      If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

      by JDWolverton on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:31:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  you should have looked at my diaries.. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dcg2, Lashe, owl06, SaneSoutherner, NewHampster

      ...on the subject. obama had originally said he'd "do what's right" by florida voters, and then backed down when he saw he was losing florida by 30 points. this isn't a sudden development for hillary- she laso had previous statements. you're presenting it as if it started today. there was a lot of information out there that you missed when you wrote your diary.

      Hillary 2008 - Flying Monkey Squadron 283

      by campskunk on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:33:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ok, that's fair (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kredwyn, NewHampster

      And I offer at least a partial apology.

      I'm so used to all the bashing from the Hillary-haters -- and the unfair standards applied to her -- that when I saw what I think is a cheap shot, I presumed you were like others who take similar cheap shots.

      So I 100% apologize for suggesting that you took the cheap shot becauase you didn't like Hillary.  I was wrong about that.

      But I still believe it's a cheap shot.  So you question the timing, fine.  But the way you wrote that snarky comment, you are feeding the narrative of her that we need to be vigilant about debunking (that she is overly manipulative and political).  I think the fact that this was all extraordinarily predictable and, at least to Kos and ohers, actually the right thing to do is reason enough to let it play out without taking potshots at Hillary for the timing.  

      I mean, there are a million things to talk about and get focused on, but the timing of her doing this is so trivial and tangential that it seems silly to use the front page to whip up fervor over it.

      Again, my apologies for lumping you with the bashers.

      •  Oh, I'm cynical about all politicians (10+ / 0-)

        I question motives about everything they do.

        While I believe that most of them have the desire to truly change the world for the better, every single one of them has a large ego, thick skin and some deep-seated grandiosity -- not necessarily negative, mind you -- but wanting to be the one to change the world and leave their mark.

        They'd have to have fairly large egos to have gotten this far. And I think they all think about the timing of everything they do. (Sometimes they miscalculate, but they still think about it.)

        As a voter and an observer (and being somewhat jaded toward all of them and also admiring much in all of them), I just note conveniences in their timing, stances, speeches, etc.

        God love 'em. I couldn't stand doing the job they're doing, either campaigning or actually listening to whiny ass people like me once they hold office.

        •  Well said Susan (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SusanG, betson08, tabbycat in tenn

          Thanks for letting us know where you stand and your motives.

          Refreshing.

          Clinton / Obama Edwards for Attorney General

          by NewHampster on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:49:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Try to be sensitive (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NewHampster

          Tensions are really high around here.  Lots of people threatening to sit out the general if their candidate doesn't win the primary.

          And in the context of a sustained 16 year campaign by the right-wing noise machine to define the Clintons as overly calculating and ambitious -- to a degree unsurpassed in politics even by George W. Bush and Karl Rove -- there are a lot of people even on the left who have bought into that.

          Thus, when you train your cyncism about the motives of politicians on Hillary on a relatively benign subject, you really incite the worst of this site.

          Look at the firt 6 replies to your diary (or to the first comments) and right off the bat you'll see this:

          Clinton arrogance and self entitlement (27+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:JLFinch, sukeyna, TLS66, Yomberto, terryhutchinson, Builderman, attydave, Big Tex, mjd in florida, aj4runner, TMP, Fredly, elpepe, Faheyman, Fools on the Hill, SmedleyButlerUSMC, Judgment at Nuremberg, beltane, el vasco, steve2012, beabea, PROfess PROgress, NM Ward Chair, Jdories, John2Luke, mrchumchum, MingPicket
          is sickening to see.

          Just being candid...

          by 4km on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:25:33 PM PST

          [ Parent | Reply to This |Recommend Hide  ]

          Disgustingly, Repulsively Sickening. n/t (18+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:malc19ken, sukeyna, Big Tex, mjd in florida, Heartcutter, aj4runner, fmrgop, elpepe, Faheyman, Fools on the Hill, Judgment at Nuremberg, beltane, el vasco, steve2012, jstott1701, NM Ward Chair, Jdories, mrchumchum

          by attydave on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 06:30:08 PM PST

          [ Parent | Reply to This |Recommend Hide  ]

          right now, I don't know (17+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:malc19ken, Yomberto, john from vermont, Big Tex, mjd in florida, seabos84, War Horse, Professor Fate, elpepe, Faheyman, SmedleyButlerUSMC, Akonitum, beltane, dagnabbit, jstott1701, Jdories, John2Luke
          if in good conscious vote for her in the general election

          So I take at face value that you didn't really mean anything by it, but as a front pager -- and an undecided one at that --  I'm sure you take seriously your role in easing tensions around here, not excacerbating them.  

          •  Are you sending this to Olbermann too (0+ / 0-)

            Her diary was similar to some of the content on his show.

            People around here act as if someone is insulting their mother or something.

            And, why did you put in the recommenders, so people would pile on? Or punish? Really, come on. What is the point of your message?

            •  recommenders (0+ / 0-)

              I just cut and pasted -- I honestly didn't notice the recommenders in there until after I posted (I cop to not reading carefully after hitting preview).  

              Havinag the recommenders in there actually makes it harder to read what Susan G's diary whipped up.

          •  I think the front page (0+ / 0-)

            has been remarkably free of "partisan" content, considering what's been going on in the diaries. On the other hand, candidates (not just Clinton, but the others too) will do things that are, by objective standards, questionable, either tactically or because of content. If you make commentary on those things off limits because it doesn't happen to fit your candidate's narrative, it does sort of eat into the effectiveness of the blog.

            And too, sometimes, criticism isn't partisan sniping or isn't JUST partisan sniping. For example, if you are a Bush supporter, you probably take all criticism from Democrats as partisan sniping. However, you probably also think that criticism from neutral parties or Bush-friendly sources means that they are secretly Democrats, because only Democrats would be negative about Bush. Obviously any objective person would know how wonderful Bush is. In other words, your worldview is so skewed that you can't be effective. It would be a shame to see ANY politician or his or her supporters doing that.

            Once you've made your candidate into the Messiah, it is awfully difficult to be objective, as I know. So, I will try, as hard as I can, to be snarky when Obama does something stupid--which I grant you he does do now and again.

            Barack Obama ate at the Chowder House

            by JMS on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:11:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I could sneeze on the front page at this point .. (4+ / 0-)

            and people would read it as anti-their candidate.

            I'm not going to get to the point where I censor myself about what I see as convenient timing -- whether it be from Clinton, Obama or Edwards (or anyone else, for that matter).

            If you look back a couple of weeks ago, the Obama swarm circled and pounced, with about 150 comments claiming I'd hated him, I'd always hated him, I'd made it clear I hated him, etc.

            And then when I posted something in the past few days that just referred to Clinton and Obama, the Edwards people were totally, 100 percent convinced I was dissing their man and that I hated him, had always hated him, had always made it clear I hated him, etc.

            Seriously. Every single candidate camp has accused me of absolutely making it clear I hate their candidate.

            Given that I'm here to blog about the Democratic candidates, I've stopped even listening to a lot of this. And there's no way I can be sensitive enough for most people unless I stop blogging altogether.

            Sigh.

            I try, honestly, I do.

            •  Thank you (0+ / 0-)

              I realy apprecate your thoughtful replies to my diary and comments.

              I also appreciate the pressure you are under and the knee-jerk accusations of bias (as I've admittd I myself am guilty).

              Just try to remember the right wing narratives about the candidates, and try to avoid feeding those, if possible):

              You can't trust Hillary.
              Obama isn't up to the job.
              Edwrds is a hypocrite.

              (I think I got that from Rove saying that's how they'd run against each of the three, but maybe it was some other right wing blowhard).

            •  No kidding. I posted a Diary which was ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KenBee, Runs With Scissors

              ...20 paragraphs of praise for John Edwards and how we need his message, yet several commenters blasted me for saying he should drop out and throw his support to Barack Obama.

              Only two things wrong: I didn't ever say or imply or hint or suggest that he should drop out; nor did I say he should endorse Obama.

              "Just remember, boys, this is America. Just because you get more votes doesn't mean you win." - Special Agent Fox Mulder

              by Meteor Blades on Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 10:10:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Susan, I think she' doing it to send a message (0+ / 0-)

      to the Florida voters. That explains the timing.

      It's a mess isn't it?

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