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  •  Well, actually... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    claude, belly, Neon Vincent

    Anonymous is largely disinterested in its own causes. No matter what reasoning it may offer (and it has offered one), the root cause of its mischeif is pranksterism. Don't offer anonymous any more credence by attributing any ulterior motives to its behavior.

    At any rate, in a battle between the scum of the internet (which is what Anonymous is) and Scientology, we can't lose.

    •  And who's WE, kimosabe? (0+ / 0-)

      You don't find it interesting that a religious group whose members made a movie about the assassination of Hitler is being targeted for harassment - and the harassment is being enabled by several US government agencies who are blatantly looking the other way?

      Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

      by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 07:59:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  IMO Scientology deserves everything (8+ / 0-)

        it gets. Nobody plays dirtier than the "Church" of Scientology. Nobody. I used to be skeptical like you, and spent an entire summer researching the group after Tom Cruise last episode. The sooner that dog is put down, the safer we'll all be.

        Living with offense is the price we have to pay for living in a free and diverse society. Being offended is not the same as being oppressed. ~ Irshad Manji

        by belly on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:02:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'd feel a bit better (0+ / 0-)

          if I saw less opinion and more fact in these replies.

          Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

          by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:05:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's rich (7+ / 0-)

            So, our opinions about your logic-starved speculations are not welcome in your diary? Then take it somewhere else.

            "People who say I'm dystopian are middle class pussies!" – William Gibson

            by subtropolis on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 09:06:07 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is that the best you can do? (0+ / 0-)

              Not good enough. I've got logic. You've got ad hominems. I'll stay right here.

              Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

              by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 09:30:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm Still Waiting to See This (3+ / 0-)

                Much-advertised "logic" that you're speaking of.  Care to point me in its direction?


                You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.
                KE - The Blog

                by karateexplosions on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 02:10:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sure. Cut and paste is my friend. (0+ / 0-)

                  The facts are as clear as any scientific experiment.

                  You have a control group and an experimental group.

                  An action is occurring on the experimental group.

                  The publicly given reasons for the action must be false because those reasons fully apply to both groups.

                  The only difference between the control and experimental groups is the level of support and approval the Bush administration has or does not have for them.

                  It's crystal clear, really. No theory here at all. Just facts.

                  It's essentially the same behavior our government engages in with third world puppet dictators. The right wing will rail against Castro and Chavez forever, while turning a simultaneous blind eye to the atrocities of Pakistan's Musharrif and Columbia's Uribe. And of course, everybody is quick to claim that Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are/were dirtbags, and just as quick to forget when they used to be OUR dirtbags.

                  Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                  by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 03:20:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  wow, i hope you're not actually a scientist (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kestrel9000, karateexplosions

                    You do not have "control and experimental groups" here, but a bunch of assumptions.

                    "People who say I'm dystopian are middle class pussies!" – William Gibson

                    by subtropolis on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 03:37:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Two cults (0+ / 0-)

                      Both do the same things.

                      One is harassed and one is condoned.

                      The reasons given for the harassment don't make sense because they're things that both cults do.

                      So the reason for the harassment must be something else.

                      The only difference is that BushCo approves of one cult and does not approve of the other.

                      Which also explains why the group doing the harassment is allowed to operate outside the law as well.

                      It's pretty simple. What part don't you understand?

                      Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                      by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 03:47:31 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  what ad hominem? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kestrel9000

                My comment was pointedly referring to your diary, not you.

                So, is this the best you can do?

                "People who say I'm dystopian are middle class pussies!" – William Gibson

                by subtropolis on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 03:36:02 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  We = the sane and normal population of the world (7+ / 0-)

        And no, I don't. You're attributing traits to a group that simply doesn't CARE about those traits. At the end of the day Anonymous' sole motive is to get attention and aquire laughs. You're trying to turn pranksters and bullies into skinheads. The shoe doesn't fit.

        •  I don't agree with your definitions (0+ / 0-)

          Sane and normal people are capable of leaving well enough alone. If a cult needs to be dealt with, let the law deal with it. And let all dangerous cults be dealt with equally. That isn't happening here.

          That press release doesn't sound like it's looking for laughs and attention to me. It looks like a threat.

          Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

          by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:07:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not equating the actions of Anonymous (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Quicklund, Neon Vincent

            With the actions of sane or normal people. They're a bunch of mad bullies who profit from the anarchy of the internet. No question. Their actions are illegal and I'm shocked that law enforcement HASN'T yet come down on them for their myriad illegal activities.

            However, I can't be bothered to care about the fate of a cult of murderers and theives who profit from the suffering of others.

            And you need to take off your tin-foil hat. Anonymous is posturing. Their "press release" is as funny to them as anything else because people like you take them seriously.

            •  You folks sure are "shocked" a lot (0+ / 0-)

              but then you refuse to do the rest of the math. Well, I don't really have the luxury of your apathy. I happen to know several of the people in Anonymous - or at least, they are Anonymous sympathizers.

              And I'm not impressed by them, but I do take seriously that they're wantonly being allowed to get away with what they're doing BY OUR GOVERNMENT.

              When that sort of thing becomes the status quo, things can certainly escalate to the point where one group of murderers and thieves is simply supplanted by another. If I am going to concern myself with murderers and thieves, in fact, I don't really have to look far beyond my own government at all, never mind some cult.

              Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

              by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:25:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, to be honest, Anonymous is small fish (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Quicklund, Neon Vincent

                And worse, from a governmental perspective, their small fish that are costly and frustratringly difficult to fry. Homeland Security has more to worry about than pimply-faced teens enaging in e-bullying.

                And if you knew members of Anonymous, you'd know what this was all about. Trust me, it has NOTHING to do with a movie about Nazis.

                •  Heh :) (0+ / 0-)

                  They're not who you think they are, and Homeland Security knows exactly who they are on some cases. In fact, I daresay more than a few of them are on the payroll. I've operated in the NYC IT arena for the last 25 years and I know from whence I speak.

                  Of course, maybe 25 YEARS ago they were pimply faced teens... heh.

                  Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                  by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:36:13 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  They're exactly who I think they are (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Neon Vincent

                    A loose coalition of troublemakers, pranksters and hackers whose first and last interest is in "Epic Lulz". Causes are merely affectations for them. They aren't a conspiracy,they're a bunch of internet assholes who glory in the relative freedom of cyberspace.

                    Don't go tinfoil hat on me here. Anonymous is plenty of vile things, but a conspiracy it is not.

                    •  You are both right and wrong (0+ / 0-)

                      Yes they certainly are internet assholes, and what they glory in is not the freedom of cyberspace (such as it is) but the ability to abuse it in order to power trip and hurt people.

                      They're being used as fall guys for this one. No tinfoil hat here. Just experience.

                      Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                      by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:50:08 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  By our government? (0+ / 0-)

                Do you understand how bot-nets and DDOS attacks work?  The government doesn't have anything to do with it.

                "Cultist" is an empty argument. It's the new Godwin. If you invoke it, you've already lost.

                by nightsweat on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:31:27 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh PLEASE! (0+ / 0-)

                  Don't EVEN pretend to tell me that the government doesn't have the capability or the wherewithal to either start, monitor or stop a DDOS if it wants to. Cut the shit. Pull that line on someone who never held a military clearance. It won't fly here. They found RTM fast enough.

                  Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                  by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:39:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yeah, right (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kestrel9000

                    Tell me about how the bot-nets that send spam and initiate virus attacks are sanctioned by the NSA next.

                    "Cultist" is an empty argument. It's the new Godwin. If you invoke it, you've already lost.

                    by nightsweat on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:41:05 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  But then I'd have to kill you. LOL (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Neon Vincent

                      and I'm not even a Scientologist or anything.

                      Don't be a complete idiot. If a group of cack-handed hackers can do it, the NSA can do it and make it LOOK like a bunch of cack-handed hackers.

                      Better yet, they can take a bunch of known cack-handed hackers and set them up to take whatever fall comes down if they get out of hand.

                      Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                      by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:52:59 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  If you had a military clearance (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    carolinadreamer, kestrel9000

                    That doesn't say much. There are a lot of different types of military clearance. Presumably you're trying to lead us to a conclusion that you were some Top Secret spook guy who Knows Things nobody else can see.

                    You are either paranoid, misguided, deeply uninformed or insane. Whatever, your post is good for a few LULz at best.

                    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. -- L. Ron Hubbard Technique 88

                    by xenubarb on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 10:38:22 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not interested. (0+ / 0-)

                      You're a troll.

                      Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                      by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 11:21:14 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've been a USENET Flame Warrior since 1992... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kestrel9000, vox humana, Randgrithr

                        ...and I know a troll when I see one.  FWIW, a lot of the posters identified here as "trolls" aren't really trolls at all; they're mission posters.  A good USENET troll is interested in trouble and attention seeking for its own sake.  Like Anonymous usually is, they're in it for the LULZ.  Mission posters, on the other hand, aren't in it for the LULZ.  They have a cause, and they post to further that cause (BTW, that makes all of us on Daily Kos mission posters; it just happens that our mission conforms with that of the community, so it builds it up instead of disrupting it--context matters).  Concern trolls and purity trolls aren't here to disrupt for LULZ alone; they're here to disrupt another group's cause and/or promote their own cause at the expense of the group.  The most extreme are like the Blues Brothers, who are "on a mission from God."  Those people are insufferable in the wrong context.

                        Back to Xenubarb.  She isn't contradicting you for the LULZ or to disrupt the forum.  She is also neither a concern troll nor, as far as I can tell, a purity troll.  As one can see from her handle and profile, Xenubarb is an anti-Scientology mission poster.  Therefore, calling her a troll would be inappropriate.  Calling her biased would be.  Anything bad for Scientology will further her cause, so she might not object to some script kiddies breaking some eggs to make an omelette she'd enjoy.  As someone who shares her bias, I can understand.

                        As for Anonymous, they're a bunch of trolls, hackers, and pirates who have decided to go on a mission.  However, it might just be the troll (attention-seeking deception) of the year.  I give out awards for that--merit awards.

                        "Iraq: the bravest 1% fighting for the richest 1%." ~ An Unknown Kossack.

                        by Neon Vincent on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 01:07:55 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's like this, Neon (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Neon Vincent

                          People who only bring ad hominems and pointless illogic to a discussion are trolls. I was willing to let the excessive emotional ranting slide, but Xenubarb's insults did not go away despite a polite request, and I treated that accordingly.

                          The other trolls here are clearly just the usual mentally ill stalkers, netkopps and pompous hypocrites. It is not completely an outside possibility that some are even members of Anonymous, whose asses are still smarting from - either knowingly or unconsciously - having obviously been owned by the gubmint in this regard.

                          It's also typical of them to try and shoot the messenger, not that I really care. I'm still laughing too hard. It really couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of guys.

                          Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                          by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 01:20:37 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You just earned your mojo from me today. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Randgrithr

                            Good response.

                            "Iraq: the bravest 1% fighting for the richest 1%." ~ An Unknown Kossack.

                            by Neon Vincent on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 01:32:17 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Um. (4+ / 0-)

                            There was more "proof" presented in relation to the charge that there were WMD in Iraq than you've presented here.

                            You've put down nothing to address, but you do need to check your facts; the FBI is, in fact investigating.

                            I know that an investigation does not necessarily mean conviction(s), but it does put a hole in your major factual point, to wit:

                            But what bothered me about this situation is that you have this group of hackers, et. al. rattling a serious sabre in the cult's direction, and the Department of Hopeless Insecurity isn't the least bit concerned.

                            As to the gubmint being worried about a film of someone taking down a dictator... isn't taking down a dictator what Bush has been puffing his chest about for years?  So, that charge doesn't hold water either, since it would be rather strange to take down an authoritarian dictator, support the overthrow of someone else you're calling a dictator "Chavez" and then freak out over someone making a movie about trying to kill a dictator.

                            Also, try this on for size: When they wanted to take John Kerry's religious credentials down a peg, did they go after the Catholic Church?  No, they co-opted it against Kerry through the lobbying of the  more conservative bishops.

                            Lastly, contrary to the media reports (which you shouldn't trust anyway), Anonymous is not a group of hackers; it's a self-identified group of people who are Internet users of widely varying backgrounds, skills, and interests.  Say it with me: there is no "hacker group" called Anonymous.

                            Be careful of sucking in garbage from the media just because the narrative you've put together in your head gives you the feeling of "ah-hah!"  That feeling, without years of intense, deliberate exposure to information and participation in its associated processes, is about as reliable as Chertoff's gut.

                            "Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid." --Basil King

                            StealthBadger.net

                            by Stealthbadger on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 02:47:33 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Know what I take seriously? (5+ / 0-)

                The fact that, not only will our own government refuse to act against Scientology fraud and crime, some of the idiot legislators actually endorse fraudulent, ineffective Scientology front group programs and waste public money on them.

                I find it's incredible that the FBI won't investigate. I find it odd that clear instances of perjury, witness tampering and making false complaints to law enforcement aren't looked into deeper.

                I am also amazed that Scientology extorted tax exemption from the IRS and nothing has been done about it, despite the story being pretty well known since the Wall Street Journal broke the tale of the IRS's "secret deal" with Scientology back in the early 90s.

                You accuse others of "not doing the math."
                Yet, not only are you focused on the wrong target, you've managed to at 2+2 and come up with "cheese."

                THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IS TO LIE TO THEM. You can write that down in your book in great big letters. -- L. Ron Hubbard Technique 88

                by xenubarb on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 10:30:52 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The question is not whether I know (0+ / 0-)

                  it's whether I care.

                  So far, you haven't given me much reason to, and I won't if you continue to insult me.

                  This diary is not a defense of Scientology.

                  It's an examination of how selected groups are being allowed and even encouraged to break the law while others are harassed based on their levels of support and agreement (or lack thereof) for/with the Bush regime.

                  Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

                  by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 10:37:15 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, You're Really Chopping At That One With (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        musing85, Stealthbadger

        Occam's Battle-Axe, aren't you?

        Can you not think of a simpler and thus more probable explanation?  


        You can have your "Under God" back when I get my "Liberty and Justice For All" back.
        KE - The Blog

        by karateexplosions on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 02:09:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Evidently (0+ / 0-)

          you can't, either.

          Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.

          by Randgrithr on Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 03:22:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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