Skip to main content

View Diary: Oliphant: "Phase 2" of Kerry Counterattack To Begin (190 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Nah (4.00)
    If Rove had come on the Bush campaign yesterday to fix a bad situation I might agree. But as DeLillo pointed out long ago, Rove is the one who set the agenda for what is now Bush's record. The fact that he has nothing to work with is his own damn fault.

    You might argue that he's a better campaign director than political adviser, but then I think you'd be making a distinction that BushCo didn't make.

    •  Well (none)
      I'll tell you, imo, if Bush had not ginned up the Iraq Debacle, I think he would be near unbeatable - even with the job situation.

      and THAT was not Rove's idea.

      "We're not criticizing Bush for going after terrorists, we're criticizing him for NOT going after terrorists." - Wes Clark (hopefully in the future J. Kerry)

      by Armando on Mon Aug 23, 2004 at 10:09:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But Why? (none)
        <<if Bush had not ginned up the Iraq Debacle, I think he would be near unbeatable - even with the job situation.>>

        I might agree with this, but I'd think the reason for it would be 9/11 - and that wasn't Rove's idea either.

        •  I think this CW is wrong (none)
          Look at Bush's poll numbers over his presidency.  They are ALWAYS trending downwards with a few tentpoles every time he starts a war.  Take out the Iraq War bump and I think his numbers would have continued to slide.  Instead of being worried about war, people would be worried about the economy.

          And as we all know, the economy is crap.

          The guy has nothing to run on, except when he covers himself in the blood of the 9/11 victims.  Which is really disgusting, since Clinton didn't spend years talking about the Oklahoma City bombing every chance he got.

          •  You Could Be Right (none)
            I don't really disagree with anything here. I'm just thinking that he'd have had an easier time wrapping himself back in the cloak of 9/11 unity if it weren't for Iraq. (Especially if those troops had been used to achieve a more decisive result in Afghanistan.)

            What I was trying to say is that whatever aura of invincibility Bush ever had at any point, it was external events and not Rove that created it.

        •  how do you know? (4.00)
          but I'd think the reason for it would be 9/11 - and that wasn't Rove's idea either

          Are you sure about that?

          •  Reasonably Sure (none)
            For one, I really think that's to obig a conspiracy for anyone to pull off. But even if I were going to say, yeah, I think he could do something like that, I don't think he'd do it nine months into the administration, as opposed to right before an election when it would have the maximum impact.
            •  Big Plans (none)
              For one, I really think that's to obig a conspiracy for anyone to pull off.

              Obviously not, since someone did.

              On the other hand, yeah, it's definitely too big for Dubya to have pulled off.

              •  Two Different Conspiracies (none)
                The attacks themselves were a huge conspiracy that was actually pulled off, yes. But that conspiracy wasn't concerned with staying secret after the fact.

                To plan the attacks and then plan for the subsequent investigation to finger others for it is a whole nother order of magnitude.

            •  Good point (none)
              I pretty much agree with you. However, even though I've never seriously entertained the idea of it being planned on purpose, I've often entertained the idea that it was an unexpected reaction to some other planned action that we've yet to uncover.

              Something else to consider is the low favorability ratings for Bush pre-9/11. Before the general election had been ruled upon, the media seemed fairly unified in it's belief that whoever eventually won would lose in 2004. After the SC named Bush the victor, his favorability ratings were pretty low. It would have been difficult for Bush to get much done with such low ratings, and in particular, it would have been difficult to get the people to approve of the war in Iraq without the fear of terrorism (and let's not forget that the war had been planned long before Bush was President.)

              I'm still skeptical, but it's something to think about. I could go on and on with this, as I'm sure we all could, but I just wanted to make these points, as they relate to the discussion.

              A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy. --Benjamin Disraeli

              by rogun on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 09:00:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  That's An Awfully Big 'If' (4.00)
        "[I]f Bush had not ginned up the Iraq Debacle. . ."

        If LBJ hadn't turned Vietnam into a major war . . .

        If Nixon hadn't sent the Plumbers into Ellsberg's shrink's office and the Watergate . . .

        If Reagan hadn't set the Iran/contra scheme in motion . . .

        If pigs could fly, umbrella makers would rule the world.

        Character is fate.  Bush has been handed gold and turned it into dross his entire life.  If there's no Iraq invasion (and it seems to have been something that they were just looking for an excuse to do anyway), he would have screwed up something else.  As for Rove, it may not have been his idea, but he certainly signed off on it.  He no doubt looked at Daddy's failure to use Bush War I to win a second term, and said "here's something we can do right that Daddy couldn't do," which was surely music to Dim Son's Oedipal ears.  Had Bush not completely screwed it up, we'd probably be into the next phase of crushing the Axis of Evil, either Iran or more likely Syria/Lebanon (I don't think they really wanted to take on North Korea, that was just to add a non-Islamic country to the list of potential targets).  But if he hadn't screwed it up he would be George Walker Bush.

        Character is fate.

        "[A] great empire and little minds go ill together." - Edmund Burke

        "History. We don't know. We'll all be dead." - G. Bush, II, The Son King

        by JJB on Tue Aug 24, 2004 at 04:10:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Oceana (none)
        The Iraq war was a bid for near total power in the United States. They wanted to turn our country into the 1984 of George Orwell, a totalitarian dystopia where everyone has to shut up in order to win the war, and there will be everlasting war. Think Oceana and those TV images of the state's righteous troops mowing down the dastardly enemy. It just hasn't turned out as they hoped, the Iraqis (and we Americans) have thrown a wrench into their plans. Bush and company made a high stakes gamble and they're being challenged hard.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site