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View Diary: When Can We Expect Health Care Reform (Whoever Wins)? (369 comments)

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  •  that's an unwarranted assumption (1+ / 0-)
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    Buffalo Girl

    the numbers have been peer review published in the NEJM with co-authorship with Harvard School of Public Health. Please check "sources" at the end of my post.

    those kaiser data are excellent... now how you interpret them is another issue altogether ;-)

    No one is surrendering. As the post concludes, reform is inevitable (and single payer is a reasonable place to go). But if you deny the data and ignore the time scale, you are missing the boat on what the post says.

    If you raise unrealistic expectations and then wonder why you failed, you have only yourself to blame.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:45:50 AM PST

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    •  Unrealistic expectations (2+ / 0-)
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      Pat K California, DemFromCT

      So are you saying single-payer is an unrealistic expectation? It seems to me the proper approach is to use polling data to plan out a strategy to make a winning single-payer movement, not to continue the "talk ourselves out of it" strategy that hasn't gotten us very far these last 15 years.

      I understand the point about the NEJM numbers, but as I pointed out to you elsewhere, if we're going to be talking about polling data on health care reform, we should be realistic and place those numbers into context.

      "Unrealistic expecations" cuts both ways. If we have an expectation that Americans will not or have not begun shedding their previous objections to single-payer, when in fact they have done so, are we not being unrealistic?

      Reform is inevitable. But the timeline is up for grabs. There are many reasons to believe we can make it happen within 5 years, just as there are reasons to believe we're going to have to wait 50 years. I think it's time we stopped trying to guess the future and instead started using real-world numbers - ALL of them - to plan out a movement.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:56:12 AM PST

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      •  exacxtly right, eugene (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Buffalo Girl

        Reform is inevitable. But the timeline is up for grabs

        Depending on what happens with the economy (trumps everything), the debate that takes place between McCain and [fill in blank] needs to discuss proposal, cost and timeline.

        In this post and others, I've explored some of the barriers to reform, but as I've noted, we may be in for a perfect storm that confounds expectations.

        if anyone is serious about health reform, we need more D's in the Senate, House and WH. it will not happen with divided govt.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:09:33 AM PST

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        •  Agreed on all of it (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pat K California

          Personally I think we should take the SCHIP approach to producing those larger Democratic majorities - define the GOP as a party that is standing in the way of solving our health care crisis.

          As long as we're interested in giving people here the information they need to produce a successful movement I'm totally on board with what you are writing. But I think we need to argue strongly against the notion that the American people are not interested or are opposed to single-payer. The numbers are fluid but trending in our direction. We need to capitalize on that momentum, but in a smart way.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

          by eugene on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:13:59 AM PST

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          •  from a practical perspective (0+ / 0-)

            I think it should be tried in CA, and then move east.
            Let's find out what works and what doesn't, similaer to MA and VT.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 09:17:19 AM PST

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            •  I don't think that people whose lives are ruined (0+ / 0-)

              by these issues are really in a position to make themselves heard. They drop off the map, they lose their homes, they become so immersed in their problems that they do not have time to participate in online forums and when they do, they don't articulate their problems well in the blogosphere. They have looked into the abyss, so to those who have not experienced it, they sound like Chicken Littles and none of the influential elite listen to them.

              Its like that saying about how first they came for the xyz.. I forget the verses..

              But - its happening - there are a lot of people who are losing their grip on what we have come to see as a normal American life right now. Our dysfunctional healthcare mess is a hue cause of this and its getting worse, quickly, as all the power blocs square off against each other with the hapless human beings in the middle, beseiged from all sides.

              There must be a limit to how much worse it can get.. but nobody knows what it is. I am sure that its much lower than we are at now. Look at history, things often get very bad before change happens, and when it happens it is often violent. That is what democracy is supposed to help us avoid, but if all of the mechanisms that would make that possible become co-opted by the machine, then the long term outlook is not good.

              We need to avoid that at all costs.. which means more than keeping people talking, that wont lead anywhere unless there is more pressure for ACTION and COMMITMENTS.

            •  Is that possible though? (0+ / 0-)

              Individual states may simply not have the financial power or available tax dollars to make this work. Given the national nature of the health care industry, we are likely going to need a national solution.

              I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

              by eugene on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 12:14:49 PM PST

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              •  CA came awfully close (0+ / 0-)

                and with the proper homework, why not?

                As you pointed out at the time, this was a flawed bill, but sets the ground rules for next time.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by Greg Dworkin on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 06:33:27 AM PST

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