Skip to main content

View Diary: Some Inconvenient Findings for Obama (324 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  She's already lost her bounce? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tbetz, jalenth

    If it's back to a one point lead, you should be more worried about why your candidate's attacks didn't finish Obama off.

    Now it's time for the counter-punch.

    And if what we're reading in the Chicago Tribune and what's being reported by TPM is true, then your candidate's top quality - her foreign policy experience - is about to take a major hit.

    •  You should be worried about (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dori

      why it is that your guy can't close the deal.  He outspent her 3 or 4 to 1.  The unions and superdelegates started moving to him.

      And he couldn't close the deal.  Why?

      Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

      by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 08:22:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  He "closed the deal" (5+ / 0-)

        in Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin, Maryland, Missouri, etc. etc.  Since when is winning thirty states a failure?  Certainly if Obama can't "close the deal," then Hillary can't close the deal more often and by greater losses.

        •  He didn't close the deal. (0+ / 0-)

          He had her on the ropes with all the advantages on his side and she bounced back.

          Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

          by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 08:30:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ohio was always hers, and he split Texas. (5+ / 0-)

            He lost by a bit more in Ohio than I'd have hoped, but Ohio was less of a loss to Obama than the Virginia/Maryland routs were to Hillary.  Look: Hillary's a tough candidate with gobs of name recognition and the only two-term Democratic President in the last, what, fifty years as her biggest cheerleader.  That Obama has beaten her in 30 contests is far more than I'd ever have expected.  And that he seriously narrowed enormous gaps in Texas and Ohio was impressive.  I do wish that the Texas primary could have ended differently, but who knows, Rush Limbaugh might have made the difference there as much as Hillary.

          •  All the advantages? (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jaywillie, tbetz, Mia Dolan, geejay, maconblue

            He had one of the worst media weeks possible running up to the election.  Nonstop negative play about him.  

            He's still a very unknown candidate.  She's been in the public eye for close to two decades.  He's been in the mainstream all of two months, since Iowa.  

            The election likely now works in his favor.  Their race is going to get a lot of media attention.  Clinton's going to be vetted more closely, and Obama has 7 weeks to make his case in Penn.  If he had 7 weeks in Ohio, it would have been a much different election.  Don't think Penn is going to go exactly the same as Ohio, it's a different animal.  

            If he's not able to win over working class voters in Pennsylvania, then I'll admit I'll be a little worried about his chances winning over conservative Dems that may vote for McCain.  But the narrative is probably going to shift towards Obama, as people recoil about Clinton trying to rip him apart.  The response to the McCain remarks is one taste, so is the vetting of her claims of experience.  

            •  He had the money. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dori

              He had Dodd coming out for him.  Bill Richardson all but called on Hillary to drop out if she didn't win, as did Dick Durbin and John Kerry.  He also had two weeks.

              I don't buy it.  For some reason, he just can't close the deal.

              Clinton's going to be vetted more closely,

              She's been more vetted than any candidate in the history of American politics.

              Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

              by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 09:00:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jaywillie, tbetz, Mia Dolan

                She's been more vetted than any candidate in the history of American politics.

                And there's still stuff that's untapped.  That should tell you something.  

              •  then neither can she (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tbetz

                First, she's never led in pledged delegates.

                Second, her win in Texas was significantly smaller than it was projected just a week before.  Even Ohio, though the lies she was able to spread there about Obama were pretty effective in halting his rise.  So, kudos to smearing her way to a victory in Ohio.

                Of course, while she won the TX primary, she lost the overall delegate count.  And since it was the Clinton campaign who once said that it has always been about the delegates, it's hard to see how TX was a victory for her.

                Why is it that she wins all these big states, the ones that matter after all, and yet she trails in popular vote and pledged delegates?(We won't metion MI and FL, because it's pretty clear that the results won't stand as they are)

                •  If you included MI & FL (0+ / 0-)

                  she leads in the popular vote.

                  We'll see where she is after a re-vote, but this election is not over yet.  What the Rasmussen polling shows is that the majority of Democrats (59%) want the nomination to whomever gets the majority of the popular vote.  Let's have a re-vote and see what happens.

                  Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                  by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:34:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  so...if you include votes properly nullified (0+ / 0-)

                    but pre-existing rules that both candidates agreed to, she leads.  Come on.  Your smarter than this type of argument.

                    It is a weak response to rely simply on the fact of the vote count without regard to its validity--that is the essence of the controversy and you persist in ignoring it.

                    Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                    by ancblu on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 11:27:00 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The delegates were nullified. (0+ / 0-)

                      Not the votes.

                      Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                      by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 11:29:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  they have null consequence and are a nullity (0+ / 0-)

                        ab initio--i.e., from the beginning. You keep wanting to make hay because the mere votes were cast--but the moved-up primary was violative of the rules and hence the penalty agreed to by all parties was that the votes themselves are invalid in and of themselves and also cannot carry any weight.

                        Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                        by ancblu on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 11:46:27 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The votes don't carry any purpose (0+ / 0-)

                          as far as the DNC is concerned, but you can't pretend they don't exist.

                          Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                          by psychodrew on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:49:52 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Karl Rove (0+ / 0-)

                            would be proud of your work here.  

                            Samantha Power was right.

                            by Mia Dolan on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:57:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Rush Limbaugh (0+ / 0-)

                            would be even prouder of yours.  He'd remind us that imitation is the best form of flattery.

                            Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                            by psychodrew on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:22:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  they may exist, but they don't count (0+ / 0-)

                            because they were improperly cast under a process that was invalid and hence not fair--so don't count them.  It really is simple.

                            Process matters--we are after all a society governed by the rule of law and not arbitary and capricious actions.

                            Your persistent effort to put HRC votes from MI and FL in her column to calculate the total popular vote count is just patently without merit.  I am surprised you cannot acknowledge  because you otherwise seem more clear headed about all this.

                            Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                            by ancblu on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:15:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We're going in circles. (0+ / 0-)

                            This is my view.  Clearly, those votes don't count toward the delegate count.  In the absence of another contest, you can't pretend those votes don't exist.  They do have a psychological impact on the race, even if they don't have any practical effect on the delegate count.

                            Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                            by psychodrew on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:24:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Fair enough and (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew

                            I won't push you any harder not to include these current votes in any total vote tabulation argument that benefits one or other of the remaining candidates.  As you correctly point out, they certainly do have psychological impact--look at you and me--and they don't presently have any practical effect on delegate count--except as motivation to figure out a solution that corrects the problem.

                            I do appreciate our discussion.

                            Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                            by ancblu on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:36:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As do I. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality. Hillary Clinton for President

                            by psychodrew on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 01:36:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  I guess I'd say that this is a Hillary "meme" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ash Tree, tbetz

            though I'm hesitant to use that annoying word again on Dailykos.  But if it's true that Obama had the chance to "put Clinton away" -- that he had her on the ropes -- why aren't people saying the same of Clinton in Wyoming?  Certainly Clinton had Obama "on the ropes," and clearly Obama bounced back.  So why isn't the MSM running around saying that Hillary couldn't close the deal?  I mean, she's got the ex-President with her, she'd just won primaries in Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas (for God's sake!), she's flush with cash, cash, cash, and yet she couldn't muster the knockout punch in Wyoming.  Let's face it: she's got a problem closing, psychodrew. :)

            But don't worry.  I'll give her another chance to put Obama out in Tuesday's Mississippi primary.  But if she can't put him away then, sheesh, obviously she's a candidate who can't "close the deal."

            •  She isn't the front-runner. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dori

              He had the money and the endorsements.

              Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

              by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 09:09:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  She was the front-runner in Ohio and Texas. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tbetz

                Obama is the front-runner, but this is the tightest contest in years, so that doesn't mean much. Some states look good for Hillary, some for Obama, and some have been surprising either in the margins of victory (Virginia, Maryland, Wisconsin, Massachusetts) or in the fact of victory at all (Missouri).  Ohio was surprising neither in margin of victory nor in the order of finish.  Texas was surprising in that the margin of victory was so small and that Obama won the delegate count.  The pundits have already divvied up the remaining states, with hardly a one aside from maybe Indiana a true toss-up.  If one or the other wins an upset--a relatively rare thing this season--then there'd be legitimate claim to something interesting.

                But this has been a micro-primary season--a war of attrition, not a spectacular and brief fight.  And I suspect it'll be a war of attrition all the way.  The MSM wants to turn this into a knock-out round, but, barring catastrophe for either candidate, it'll be a nail-biting creep all the way to the finish line.

              •  According to the US press she might as (0+ / 0-)

                well be. She's got the mo. Obama is flailing. It's opposite day.

                Actually no one has the mo but the media needs a race and they are more than happy to assist Clinton's campaign to move the goalposts out to the freaking parking lot if need be. Perhaps SNL can do a skit about that.

                Apparently she has the money too. That's what I heard. She also has the Clinton name and she has a fairly popular former President stumping for her. Those assets in a Democratic primary should more than compensate for any extra financial advantage Obama has over her. Yet, somehow they don't. Go figure.

                A politician should have three hats. One for throwing into the ring, one for talking through, and one for pulling rabbits out of if elected. Carl Sandberg

                by mentaldebris on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:09:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Let's talk about money. (0+ / 0-)

                  Apparently she has the money too. That's what I heard. She also has the Clinton name and she has a fairly popular former President stumping for her. Those assets in a Democratic primary should more than compensate for any extra financial advantage Obama has over her. Yet, somehow they don't. Go figure.

                  He's raised more than $80 million since Iowa and she hasn't even raise $50 million.  That's a HUGE advantage.  More paid staff to GOTV.  More advertising.  And he also got SEIU support.  He had the ammunition for a knock-out punch, and he clearly expected it, with all his surrogates out on TV last weekend saying Hillary needs to think about dropping out.

                  But he couldn't close the deal.

                  Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                  by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:31:57 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Whoops. I meant Maryland. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mia Dolan

        But he will seal the deal in Michigan if they vote again!

      •  He was 20 points down in TX and Ohio (5+ / 0-)

        just two weeks before the voting.

        She needed a blow out win. She didn't get that.He closed the gap and he wasn't expected to win.

        But to listen to you and the MSN, the Clinton machine who have been in place for 20 years, have all the local officials in their pocket and she still can't close the deal.

        What does that say about her?

      •  the race has been over (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jaywillie, tbetz, Mia Dolan

        since at least the potomac primaries.

        History will show that this race was won in february where obama won his states AND her states

        Maine was a killer

    •  And in the NYT... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jaywillie

      as I listed in my diary entry

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site