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View Diary: Some Inconvenient Findings for Obama (324 comments)

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  •  Simply incorrect. (7+ / 0-)

    C'mon; it's very easy to look this stuff up.

    You have time to bloviate but no time to verify your claims regarding facts?

    Hmmm.

    •  I was busy! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dori

      I was getting the shit kicked out of me by the Obama supporters. One of them was nice enough to point out this link which confirms my statement.  Including MI & FL, she is winning by 32,063.  Without, Obama is leading 591,017.  

      I make mistakes.  I am a human being.  But I do not make shit up.

      Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

      by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 09:28:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That total gives Obama 0 votes (0+ / 0-)

        in Michigan. If you're going to play in the fantasyland where Michigan and Florida votes count, it's absurd to postulate that zero of the "uncommitted" vote goes to Obama.

        That count also doesn't include the votes in four caucus states, three of which Obama won by large margins.

        •  Fantasyland? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dori

          Whatever happened to civil discussion here?  There was nothing incendiary in my diary and look at what was thrown at me.

          You are correct, but Obama took himself off the Michigan ballot.  Nobody forced him to do so.

          Given the small number of people who turn out for caucuses, do you think that Obama can close a 30,000 vote gap with Maine, Washington, and Iowa?  

          Anyway, my statement did have empirical support and I did NOT make anything up.

          Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

          by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 09:42:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Civil discussions require (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mia Dolan

            a degree of intellectual honesty, and including the MI count for HRC when Obama was not on the ballot--for whatever reason--is simply disingenous.

            Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

            by ancblu on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:00:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not disingenuos. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dori

              Hillary got 328,309 votes that day and Obama got zero.  If you include FL and MI into the popular vote totals, she wins by 30,000.

              Everything I wrote was true.  You may not believe that the results were valid, and that is a very legitimate argument, but what I said was factually accurate.

              Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

              by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:04:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  ok---fair point. (0+ / 0-)

                But your 2nd diary comment pertains to the popular vote count--and it seems disingenous to include the MI vote count where Obama was not even the ballot because of his compliance with pre-existing rules--which is also factually accurate.

                Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                by ancblu on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:22:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Which comment are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

                  But your 2nd diary comment pertains to the popular vote count

                  Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                  by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:37:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                    The other inconvenient finding is that, in the event that one candidate wins the most popular votes while the other candidate receives the most pledged delegates 59% of Democratic primary voters believe that superdelegates should support the candidate who receives the majority of the popular vote.

                    This is the second diary point/comment I was referring to and which I have been discussing with you.

                    Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                    by ancblu on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 10:44:47 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ok. Now I get it. (0+ / 0-)

                      I was referring to the Rasmussen poll.  Rasmussen was looking at the hypothetical possibility that Obama might end up with more delegates while Hillary might end up with more popular votes.  We won't know the final popular vote total until June.

                      Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                      by psychodrew on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 11:22:09 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  and we won't know the proper allocation (0+ / 0-)

                        of votes from MI and FL until an acceptable solution is worked out.  

                        Accordingly, it is a mistake to give them any value now when evaluating the total popular vote count.  That is my sole point.

                        Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                        by ancblu on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 11:50:23 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I think it's absurd (0+ / 0-)

                          to completely discount them right now because that is the only total we have.

                          Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                          by psychodrew on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 12:47:30 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It is absurd to give weight to something that has (0+ / 0-)

                            no weight.

                            While I understand that you keep insisting on the objective reality of votes cast, you equally persist in disregarding the invalidity and null consequence of these votes.  

                            I don't at all mean to condescend, but I encourage you to take five minutes googling the difference between a void contract and a voidable contract so you might understand the concept I am discussing.

                            Void contracts, such as a contract to buy illegal drugs for example, are simply not recognized as having any existence whatsoever, from their very inception, and even if a piece of paper was actually written up and signed by the parties with money and drugs exchanging hands, etc.

                            The MI and FL votes are similarly null and void--from inception even though they were actually cast--because the primary process under which they were cast was invalid...as agreed by both parties.

                            There are other far more persuasive arguments, logically and factually, for MI and FL voters to participate legitimately in the nominee selection process, but this persistent effort to give value to null votes diminishes your position because it is simply wrong-whether you recognize it or not.  Simple proof of this latter point is the controversy itself--under current circumstances, the MI and FL delegations will not be seated; why? Because their election was invalid and the votes cast have no consequence.

                            Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                            by ancblu on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:07:17 AM PDT

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                          •  They don't count towards the delegate count (0+ / 0-)

                            but you can't pretend they don't exist.

                            Barack Obama took his name off the ballot.  He chose to do that.  He got 0 votes because he chose to get 0 votes.

                            They may not mean anything as far as delegates, but they do exist.

                            Together, we will turn promises into action, words into solutions and hope into reality.

                            by psychodrew on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 05:17:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He removed it to comply with (0+ / 0-)

                            previously agreed upon rules, and HRC chose not to in clear violation of these rules.

                            Now the resulting votes exist, but only to the extent that a foreign national's preferential vote might exist--interesting but irrelevant.  There is a reason why Canadians, or any other non-US citizen for example, cannot vote for this country's president--there is a basic rule that governs and that we all respect and follow.  This is precisely comparable to what you and I are debating...rules matter and you simply cannot count an invalid vote simply because it might exist.

                            Anyway, thanks for the discussion and best to you.

                            Rome is burning ... put down the fiddle.

                            by ancblu on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 11:44:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  More trolling (0+ / 0-)

        But I do not make shit up.

        I hear Karl Rove is looking for an intern.  You should apply.

        Samantha Power was right.

        by Mia Dolan on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:55:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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