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View Diary: What's wrong with prostitution? (262 comments)

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  •  How so? (11+ / 0-)

    If it's legal, regulated, and the sex worker is participating by choice, how does that make the sex worker a victim?

    You might as well say flipping burgers in a burger joint victimizes teenagers.  You'd have a better case.

    I'm talking about sex workers in a strictly voluntary sense.  Yes, you might make arguments that these workers are "forced" in to it by circumstances, but as long as it's legal and regulated by state laws, it's assumed to be voluntary.

    •  Sex is a Moral and Healthy Legal Activity (5+ / 0-)

      Start from that viewpoint and the crime/victim memes are harder to sell.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:58:55 AM PDT

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      •  When commerce is not involved (0+ / 0-)

        but bring money into the equation and the power of a stronger (physically) male vs female and I think the victim is easier to spot.

        •  That . . . (8+ / 0-)

          makes no sense.  If normal sex doesn't victimize women, then why does sex for money victimize women?

          The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

          by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:25:49 AM PDT

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          •  "Normal" sex (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FightTheFuture

            often DOES victimize women.  Throughout history, marriage has often been little more than a long-term sex contract ... at least a prostitute gets CASH for her efforts; wives have often gotten nothing but the shaft after twenty years of hard work.

            As long as males are on average 10% larger than females, testosterone increases muscle mass, and men have a higher average desire for sex than women do, some men are going to at some times and in some ways attempt to dominate their way into sex.  At least prostitution allows them a nonviolent means of acquiring what they want so much, and gives the woman liquid currency in exchange rather than a nebulous right to care and maintenance that is often left unenforced and unhonored.

            •  Wherever desire is present, victimization can (0+ / 0-)

              and often does, occur.  It does not have to be sex.  Just ask the American Indians that!  Ask the blacks imported as slaves!  Ask almost anyone as a consumer shafted by credit card companies, corporations and constant programming to buy the latest shit so they have "self-worth"!  Ask workers outsourced in the sociopathic zeal for more profit, damm the consequences.  Ask those to looking to satisfy the desire to fill the emptiness and meaninglessness of their lives being bamboozled by religious charlatans!

              The list is endless.

              You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

              by FightTheFuture on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:36:14 PM PDT

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    •  that's (0+ / 0-)

      one of the argument you all seem to have for hating wal-mart.

      Token conservative

      by dookphan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:00:57 AM PDT

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      •  A corporate entity with massive resources that (0+ / 0-)

        regularly abuses its workers, suppliers and communities while simultaneously helping to prop up a communist regime that has threatened us with nuclear attackback in '05 and sucking all the wealth out of local communities until they are barren husks is nowhere near same galaxy of arguments being advanced here.  

        Keep trying, goof!!

        Oh, if you really want to learn something about Wal-mart, an excellent article form Harper's Magazine:  Breaking the chain: The antitrust case against Wal-Mart

        And a very good website devoted to you beloved corporation -- http://walmartwatch.com/

        You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

        by FightTheFuture on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:19:18 PM PDT

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        •  the point of the commenter (0+ / 0-)

          that was as long as one is voluntarily a prostitute nobody should care.  I would claim the same is true for one who is voluntarily working at wal-mart.  That's all.

          Token conservative

          by dookphan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 06:17:04 PM PDT

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          •  And I responded that you are making a false (0+ / 0-)

            comparison and trying to elevate Wal-mart to some innocent neutral party by attaching it to arguments for prostitution and a persons right of choice.  Big mistake to bring a predatory sociopath like Wal-mart into this disucssion, as I am pointing out, Mr. "Token Conservative".

            Freedom to choose is not absolute in anything.  With Wal-mart, as it destroys local business and robs opportunity and futures of many communities it preys upon, your choices as to where yo may earn a living narrow.  

            When Wal-mart is the only game in town, or a very limited set of options for work, then your "free choices" are work for a crappy company that, as most, do not pay a living wage, or, well, starve or look for some other type of work that may be even more undesirable or illegal, which can cause other problems.  You can also try to move which has its own issues and difficulties depending on your circumstances.

            People kinda forget that 1) jobs are not that plentiful these days, even low paying ones, 2) once you find a job, you take it to keep on surviving and 3) once you have it it does kinda eat away at your time to find another, better. one.  

            You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

            by FightTheFuture on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:08:21 AM PDT

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            •  companies don't (0+ / 0-)

              just magically shut down when wal-mart arrives.  people have to shop there.

              Token conservative

              by dookphan on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 03:00:26 PM PDT

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              •  Stop being an idiot; educate yourself already!!! (0+ / 0-)

                Wal-mart is not some innocent or neutral object in space!

                I've provided excellent links about the bullshit that is Wal-mart.  You can also check out Glen Greenwald's excellent and informative DVD, The High Cost of Low Price.

                Sure, Wal-mart offers reasons to shop there.  However,  they create those reasons on the backs of their suppliers, other countries and, in an indirect way, by the yokels who shop and work there.  The end result is extensive damage to smaller communities, local business, and the health of overall living standards.    

                You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

                by FightTheFuture on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:24:33 PM PDT

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                •  so we need to (0+ / 0-)

                  get the government, with its spectacular track record of success in whatever it does, to save the yokels?

                  Token conservative

                  by dookphan on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 04:28:46 PM PDT

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                  •  You are making no sense at this point. (0+ / 0-)

                    What does that have to do with a discussion about prostitution, and your lame attempt to conflate the arguments for it with Wal-mart?  

                    If you want to make some pro argument for Wal-mart, you have failed, miserably.  

                    If you are trying to smear government, you exhibit a very limited understanding on how things work -- what government means, it's roll and responsibilities and meaning, what corporations are and... well, I suspect you are several centuries behind current thought, frankly.  As I said, go educate yourself.

                    BTW, government, when responsive to the people, and the bonds of the people to their government are strong, accomplishes very much, very well.  I know you probably cannot understand this, but the very fact that corporations like Wal-Mart were able to even start, grow, prosper and exist is because of OUR government.

                    the fact that we even have our society with the ideas and concepts behind it, even if poorly implemented, is because of a government instituted among men to secure their unalienable rights.  For all the problems government may have, especially now with these criminal traitors and Republican party who are pushing their soft coup, you still have a chance to change things.  You do not with proivate corporations with balance sheets larger than most countries!!

                    Go educate yourself, but first, purge the bullshit within yourself!  Good luck.

                     

                     

                    You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

                    by FightTheFuture on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 05:53:24 PM PDT

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                    •  we disagree (0+ / 0-)

                      more deeply than whether or not Wal-Mart is a good or bad corporation apparently.

                      We part ways that the point where you say that corporations like Wal-Mart were able to even start, grow, prosper and exist is because of OUR government.  Just how does that work?  How is that in line with our constitution which does not give us our rights, but recognizes them.  The government does not allow us to do anything, we allow it to do whatever it does.

                      Token conservative

                      by dookphan on Fri Mar 14, 2008 at 07:09:54 PM PDT

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                      •  No, I am pointing out you seem to be clueless (0+ / 0-)

                        and do not explain your ideas very well, or at all.    Whatever disagreements you think are present it's hard to judge because you have presented so little.  
                        To expand upon your last statement, how do you think our country even works?  

                        It is the actions of people coming together to form a collective, a government, a constitutionally limited democratic republic, proscribing its rules, etc. that establish the dimensions of the "sandbox" that we all "play" within that allow society to be built and, hopefully, if well enough constructed, to prosper.  Corporations like Wal-mart are part of that society and subservient to it.  They are not outside of it as much as they think they are (and Wal-mart if by no means the worst player in this subversion).  These powerful entities, whether individuals, trusts, or now corporations like Wal-mart, continue to seek to change the rules of the sandbox to benefit themselves, the few, regardless of the consequences to the many.  With the damaging influence of money in our politics, much of it directed from corporations today, they are getting away with it more and more!!   Couple this with an increasingly ignorant citizenry in a degrading society where survival is becoming harder and harder and we will soon end up killing the golden goose.   Welcome back Fascism (which is already here) and then feudalism, or worse.

                        As far as what I said about Wal-mart, it is the laws and regulations created by government that allows a corporation like Wal-mart to exist in the first place as it does, and to prosper.  These laws can be, and should be, tweaked and modified over time to insure that the subject of them does not become damaging to society.  For example, a big controversy today is the concept of human rights, unalienable rights, extending to corporate entities.  That is ridiculous, but we keep on marching closer and closer to building bigger and bigger sociopathic entities, these Frankenstein’s, without real awareness and discussion by an informed citizenry, which Jefferson pointed out is vital for a healthy Democracy.  Why is that?  Could it be that 90%+ of our "news" is owned by 5 major global corporations?   Education has been eroded over the last 25+ years by conservative/right wing garbage intended to weaken public schooling ad subvert it to other ends (e.g. religious claptrap).  An educated informed citizenry would not bode well for their interests.  Important to keep the sheeple economically enslaved, consumer driven and ignorant.  Thom Hartmann disucsses this very well in Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance.

                        On your Constitutional views, if you want to be technical, the Declaration of Independence recognizes the general rights of man, "unalienable rights", and the Bill of Rights enumerates some of the more important of these rights, from the view of the founding fathers, so people would not forget them.  The Bill of Rights is not intended to be complete by any means.  The Constitution itself is a document that proscribes the mechanisms and functions of government and the limits of government upon individuals and their rights.  It establishes the broad dimensions of the sandbox and the players within.  From this laws are created by Congress to run society and implemented/enforced the executive branch via the DOJ and other agencies and interpreted and applied by the judicial branch.  Some of these laws are found unconstitutional and removed, or changed.   For other needs, the constitution is amended, but we must be careful with that as we can easily fuck ourselves up (e.g. Prohibition).   There’s a reason that process was made so difficult, the founders understood well the stupidity, ignorance and bigotry of men.

                        To reiterate, this is a government founded by "We the People", under the concepts of the rights of man, not kings, elite, or corporations.  Out Government is US, in essence; regardless of how subverted it has become by other interests and agendas, many with corporate influence and backing.  We need to take back our government for the benefit of all of us, people, not corporations; not neo-con delusions of empire, not our religious Christian Taliban.  These sociopathic mega-corporations, whether in retail, healthcare, military, agriculture, media, etc. need to be reigned back in and put in perspective of the common good, the commons, in general.  In many cases they may be needed to be broken apart under anti-trust, for example.  

                        You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

                        by FightTheFuture on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:27:32 AM PDT

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