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View Diary: What's wrong with prostitution? (262 comments)

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  •  Would it though? (0+ / 0-)

    Widespread availability and cultural acceptance might just encourage more people to victimize themselves and others.

    Never give up! Never surrender!

    by oscarsmom on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:23:23 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Not that you can believe HBO (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Subversive

      or 3rd hand stories from lockerrooms here in the rural west.

      But at the prices the girls in the legal brothels in Nevada charge, they aren't being victimized.

      Or maybe they are being "victimized" like an NBA center is being "victimized" when he receives a few million a year to take charges from Yao Ming and Shaquille O'Neal.

      •  The VAST majority of prostitutes don't work in (0+ / 0-)

        Nevada brothels.  When was the last time you actually saw a woman walking the streets?  Go down to the part of town where they walk, share a cigarette or two and talk to them.  Look at them, in the eyes, hear their stories, and tell me that they're not victims.  

        Seriously, you've always seemed really enlightened.  This seems to be a pretty easy read for most progressives.  I encourage you to look again at what you're saying.

        peace.

        "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

        by balancedscales on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:34:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Substance abuse treatment (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lemming22

          The vast majority (pretty close to 100%) of the prostitutes here in Salt Lake City are supporting drug habits.

          They need drug or maybe alcohol rehab.  The girls out in rural Nevada are, I think, drug tested.

          This needs a separate diary, but if we had adequate drug & alcohol education & treatment; then most illegal prostitutes would find real jobs.

          •  I agree 100 percent. Thank you for (0+ / 0-)

            clarifying your views on this.  Nevada brothels are unique in their existence, on many levels.  

            There seems to be a major disconnect in this diary between the brothels and the majority of prostitutes.  

            Again, thanks.

            "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

            by balancedscales on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:45:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  And if we had decent jobs (0+ / 0-)

            then 90% of current addicts wouldn't need drugs or treatment.

            Drugs don't kill people.  People take drugs to hide from the knowledge that they are slowly dying inside.  Illegal users just don't have insurance to cover prescriptions for Prozac and Paxil.

            Fix the society, and the symptoms of our illness will fix themselves.

        •  They're victims because . . . (6+ / 0-)

          the criminalization of the act forces them into the WAY they do it.  You can't say "prositution victimizes the sex worker because most prostitutes under the current system are victims."  We're proposing to change the system.

          The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

          by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:43:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, they're victims because the vast majority (0+ / 0-)

            are drug addicts, abused women, and have no option other than to sell their bodies in order to survive.  

            "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

            by balancedscales on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:46:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  their victimization . . . (4+ / 0-)

              is not, then, a result of them choosing to be prostitutes.  Their prostitution is a result of their victimization.  You're confusing cause and effect.

              If prostitution was legal, would it increase the number of people who have no other choice?  No.  We have examples of legal prostituion in rural Nevada.  Those girls are not drug addicts or abused.  If legal brothels like that were more common, the demand for illegal crack whores would dwindle to almost nothing, and those women would have to find something else to support their drug habit.

              The problem for them isn't prostitution, it's drug addiction.  If and when prostitution is not enough for them to support their habit, they will get clean or find something else.

              The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

              by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:52:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The men who pay five dollars for a blow job (0+ / 0-)

                are not going to pay 500 for 30 minutes.  And I don't know when the last time you were in Vegas may have been, but all those ladies one block off the strip aren't working in clean brothels, and they're not all making 250 dollars an hour.

                You're dealing with completely different socioeconomic strata.  The idea that supply/demand is controlling this is silly.  Cigarettes and booze are legal, but there is a huge black market for both, still.  Why is that?

                "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

                by balancedscales on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:03:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Your assertion . . . (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sdgeek, lemming22

                  that there is a huge black market for cigarettes and booze seems to be counter intuitive and against common knowledge.  Care to provide some backup?

                  Of course this is governed by supply and demand.  The criminalization of prostitution creates two sectors of a black market, just as with any criminality.  You have the overpriced market, where the criminals charge a considerable markup because they know their product is artificially scare(these ones accept the risk inherent in their market), and you have the super discount criminals trying to offload their product to any taker, because they know they can't market it legally(these ones try to minimize their market risk).

                  Sex is not different from any other contraband, or any other product or service.  Anything you can buy or sell obeys the same laws.

                  The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

                  by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:11:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Black market for booze? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fuzzywolf, sdgeek, lemming22

                  I live in the state with the most ridiculous liquor laws in the country.

                  Unless you count driving to Wyoming or Idaho as "the black market" and I suppose you could; we don't have a black market in booze.

                  Where is there a black market in booze any more?

                  Taxes on legal prostitution could pay for treatment for the drug-addicted prostitutes that give the $5 dollar blowjobs.

                  •  Everybody wins! (nt) (0+ / 0-)

                    The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

                    by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:16:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, I wouldn't go that far (0+ / 0-)

                      Prohibition made Al Capone rich, funded the Mafia and killed people with grain alcohol.

                      Our current system with the infrequent corrupt or incompetent State Alcohol Commission employee is better.  Once in a while, we would run into a corrupt or incompetent State Prostitution Commission employee.

                      That's why I was hoping that a rural Nevadan would post here.  They could tell us how it worked out.

                •  Taxes. (0+ / 0-)

                  The federal government taxes the hell out of these things in order to discourage use and raise revenue.  When booze was illegal, the unregulated black market for it sky-rocketed.  Make prostitution legal and watch the issues decline.

        •  Perhaps if it was legal, the standard of living (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fuzzywolf, Utahrd, SarekOfVulcan, sdgeek

          would improve dramatically.  We can see the effect of prohibition.

    •  Did that happen with abortion? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Subversive, sdgeek, lemming22

      It was once illegal, and exploitive.  Widespread availbility and cultural acceptance has done nothing to encourage more people to "victimize" themselves by using it.

      •  Seriously, you're trying to equate (0+ / 0-)

        abortion and prostitution?  

        "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

        by balancedscales on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:35:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  only in . . . (4+ / 0-)

          the quality and type of arguments brought for and against them.  Compare American history to today and America today to the rest of the world.  Criminalizing a "vice" causes far more problems than the vice itself could ever create.  Look at Prohibition . . .it didn't cut down on alchohal consumption, but it made alchohal less safe and gave us the mob.  Criminalization of certain drugs today are giving us gangs.

          Prostitution has not always been illegal, and in societies where it was legal, it was not a problem.

          The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

          by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:46:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We're obviously looking at this from two (0+ / 0-)

            different sides.  Prostitution to the john, you may see as a "vice", and I agree with you that the criminalization of it should definitely be revisited and revised if deemed necessary.  I think the disconnect seems to be in the fact that you seem to be talking about Nevada brothels and labeling that as prostitution, as if all prostitutes work in clean, regulated brothels.  However, the vast majority of prostitutes are in dire straits, often drug addicted, and often have abuse in their past.  

            And prohibition didn't give us the mob.  The mob was here when the first group of Sicilians stepped onto Ellis Island.  Also, gangs were formed in the prison system, as a way of protecting one another from other races or groups.  They moved from prison once their members were released and being cons and criminals, drugs made their way to the gangs as a way of supporting themselves.  

            "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

            by balancedscales on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:54:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Legal prostitution . . . (4+ / 0-)

              looks like Nevada brothels.  Illegal prostitution looks like street walkers.  Legalizing prostitution shifts the balance to the former, keeping it illegal gives us the latter.

              The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

              by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:57:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  With all due respect, your logic is faulty (0+ / 0-)

                Prostitution isn't simply an economic matter.  Prostitution is enormously complex, and sociological, psychological matters abound when discussing it.  I'm simply saying that your view and the view of many on this thread is far too simple.  

                I've got a ton of work to do, thanks for the civility.

                "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

                by balancedscales on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:07:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I should be working, too~ (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sdgeek, cynndara

                  If we're going to include psychological issues, then we have to recognize that it is, in fact, healthy for both individual and society to do away with sexual stigma in general.  The first step in rehabilitating any neurosis is to dismantle the reinforcing superstructures birthed by that neurosis.

                  Ergo, legalize prostitution.

                  The only rule of freedom is not to destroy freedom.

                  by fuzzywolf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:14:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  There allready is both (0+ / 0-)

      http://www.bigdoggie.net/

      Prostitution is legal in most places, btw.  You film it and call it making amateur porn.

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