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View Diary: Obama, Electibility and the Rev. Wright (162 comments)

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  •  I truly don't understand the fuss about Wright (0+ / 0-)

    Being a still-grieving Edwards supporter and not being sold at all on Obama, I found myself agreeing with about 3/4's of what the Rev. Wright had to say.  And I'm white.  Being a strict agnostic and not believing, assuming there IS a god, he/she/it gets involved with blessing or damning any country, I'll pass on the God Damn America bit, though I rather agree with what this is code for (code to my agnostic ears).  I'll pass on the implied comparisons of Obama to the baby Jesus, but  I believe most of the condemnations the Rev. heaped on this country were pretty valid AND believe it was not unpatriotic of him to say so.  We've had a bloodier and far more scurrilous history than we like to think. I would have added to the Rev's list the fire-bombing of Dresden, in fact. Pointing out the facts is not unpatriotic--in fact, is quite the opposite--it seems to me he's saying "Let's DO something about this.  Let's reject this path we've been on."  That I don't agree electing Obama is a surefire way to accomplish doing something about it is irrevelant.  I kind of like the Rev, finding what he had to say far more reality-based than what either Huckabee or Romney would have to say in sermons they gave or listened to.  Flame if you like.

    Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

    by planetclaire4 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 12:16:20 PM PDT

    •  You must wonder though (0+ / 0-)

      If Rev. Wright is speaking truth to power so-to-speak, then what does it say about Obama that he condemned these remarks and severed his ties. Of course, if Rev. Wright is speaking ugly nonsense as Obama contends and which I heartily agree, then Obama's actions now should be applauded even if they come woefully late in the day.

      •  What it says about Obama condemning these (0+ / 0-)

        remarks (to me) is that such remarks go against the very conciliation Obama is driven to believe in and promote.  I would hope Obama hears the truth from the Rev as I do, but chooses not to act as though he accepts it--otherwise, he forfeits his personal message.  Not saying whether I think this is good or bad--it's frankly none of my business how Obama reacts to it.  I was just pointing out how one white person (myself) reacted to it.

        Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

        by planetclaire4 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:04:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  America invented AIDS? (1+ / 0-)
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      YoGo

      That makes him sound psycho, as in paranoid, which is not a good thing to have in a minister.

      •  Anyone who's read Shillitoe's (sp?) book (0+ / 0-)

        knows the scientific explanation for where AIDS came from (hint:  Not America--or any conspiracy), so yes, the Rev seems a tad below the intellectual benchmark on this.  On the other hand, he's certainly factual when it came to the syphilis injections given at Tuskegee.  And he's right on about how we tend to shrug over the civilian deaths (millions) we've caused, not to mention the devastation our meddling in others' governments have caused.  While it doesn't speak personally to me that we need to elect someone cabdrivers pass up, have to allow this is a very valid point to his congregation.  More emotional than intellectual, but hey, whites vote emotionally too.  I AM surprised he gets away with it from a church pulpit and believe he should have saved it for street rallies, but that's a different issue.

        Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

        by planetclaire4 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:01:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Condemn FDR for Dresden is morally questionable (0+ / 0-)

          I agree with you about Tuskegee. But to condemn Roosevelt's decision to firebomb Dresden is much more questionable. We didn't have smart bombs and lazer guided missiles then so we couldn't avoid the awful civilian carnage if we were to destroy the German industrial base and win the war. The blame for German civilian casualties rests with the German leaders who started the war. I reject Rev. Wright's contention to the contrary.

          •  Wright didn't contend anything about (0+ / 0-)

            Dresden--I did.  And I'm more condemning us for shrugging it off than Roosevelt for complying with Churchill's obsession with destroying it (though I think Roosevelt does deserve his share of condemnation for that).  And I beg to differ about the choice we made to bomb it the way we did, knowing exactly how awful the civilian carnage would be.  No, we didn't have the weapons you believe take civilian carnage out of the question, but consider this--neither did the Germans--and the damage they brought to London was miniscule compared to this.  (Google it.)  Winnie could have bombed the railroads to the camps instead and crippled the Germans more physically.  (It was brought up.)  The German leaders, hideous though they were, can't be held responsible for Winnie's decision to take the psychological route and not only incinerated hundreds of thousands of civilians, but destroyed an acknowledged major trove of priceless artifacts of our civilization as well.  We complied with him, then initiated our own civilian-dismissing aggression on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  And all I'm saying is, I appreciate Wright's perspective.

            Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

            by planetclaire4 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 02:31:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Whoa! (0+ / 0-)

              Check your history. It was FDR, more than Churchill, who pushed for the firebombing of cities. In fact, Churchill expressed serious doubts about the wisdom of this strategy to Roosevelt. But FDR was ardent for destroying the Nazi industrial base in the most effective and quickest way possible. And when we talk about firebombing, you should also remember the 1945 firebombing of Tokyo - an all-American endeavor that had nothing to do with Churchill. But, you know what, as ghastly as Tokyo, Hiroshima and Dresden were, they brought an end to the slaughter and, in Japan's case, probably saved the lives of millions of Japanese who would have been killed if we had been forced to invade Japan. So in the end, and with the hindsight of history, I still think FDR was right - as awful and hellish as the results were. And, yes, Hitler deserves the ultimate blame for the carnage. The man who started the war, killing millions in the process, doesn't get any moral equivalency points if the end result was far more destructive to his people than it was to the British or Americans.

              •  I will check, though my impression has (1+ / 0-)
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                YoGo

                always been Churchill had it in for Dresden just as Cheney does for Iran, but admittedly I'm not a deep scholar of this.  You are correct in that Roosevelt also rejected bombing the railroads.  But, hm, arguments have been made on both sides as to what kind of "industrial base" the Florence of the Elbe was.  It was, however, doubled in size due to the influx of refugees from the approaching Russians, one reason for which was that no one, given what Dresden was, had expected it to be any kind of target, so the action was... highly effective.  And I simply cannot agree with you that wanton destruction of civilian life was justified, nor that our employment of such can be blamed on the enemy.  No arguments about who started the war, no arguments that who did so was monstrous beyond normal comprehension, but by my code, we were solely responsible for the path we took.  To say otherwise is liking justifying waterboarding because "9/11 changed everything."  

                Please, God, don't let the Democratic party make me vote for some pinhead who believes in the GWOT. God grinned...

                by planetclaire4 on Sat Mar 15, 2008 at 07:45:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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