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View Diary: Barack Obama to Fundraise for DNC w/ Latest Polls (307 comments)

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  •  Or did not cast their vote (16+ / 0-)

    If Republicans had told voters that the election wouldn't count and not to show up, we'd be correctly outraged if the result was held out as legitimate.

    •  Not casting a vote is always a bad idea (0+ / 0-)


      I am an Edwards Democrat.

      by ThirstyGator on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 08:55:47 AM PDT

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      •  but knowing it would not count (10+ / 0-)

        is voting in a straw poll, not an election.

        •  The millions of people who showed up to vote ... (0+ / 0-)

          did not consider it a straw poll.  And the complete unwillingness of the party "leadership" to fix it is likely to serve up both states to the republican candidate on a silver platter.

          I am an Edwards Democrat.

          by ThirstyGator on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:21:52 AM PDT

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          •  so let me get this straight (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            the voters in FL and MI are going to be so mad about whether a few hundred people get to attend a big shindig in Denver that they will vote against their own interest to exact revenge on the other 48 states of the union for not allowing them to break the rules?

            Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

            by Mad Kossack on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:30:03 AM PDT

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            •  No, but there are plenty who will ... (0+ / 0-)

              choose not to vote (or vote McCain) because the national party and the party's nominee are as dismissive about counting out votes as you are.

              I'll vote for the nominee, but I know at least four people who have changed (or dropped) party registration because the idea of belonging to a party that couldn't find a way to count their vote was less than democratic.

              I am an Edwards Democrat.

              by ThirstyGator on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:33:20 AM PDT

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              •  their votes would have counted (5+ / 0-)

                if they had elected party leaders in FL who were not blatantly breaking the rules.   The rules were written agreed to long before the votes were cast.

                Florida and Michigan knew what the consequences were for breaking the rules.  Yet, they chose to do it anyway.

                I'd be sympathetic to the cause of both states if I heard any sort of "gee, we really fucked up. I guess we need to play by the rules in the future." coming from the party leaders of those states. There is no contrition, no sense of shame, no recognition that THEY CAUSED THIS DAMN PROBLEM in the first place!   All I hear is that "we're going to ramrod ourselves into a position to determine who the party nominee will be", which was exactly the attitude that caused them to break the rules in the first place.

                Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

                by Mad Kossack on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:41:42 AM PDT

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                •  so damn the electoral votes, full steam ahead! (0+ / 0-)

                  Mad Kossack doesn't like the attitude, let's move forward!

                  I am an Edwards Democrat.

                  by ThirstyGator on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:45:21 AM PDT

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                  •  So apparently it is OK to threaten the Democrats (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Inland, RBinDLH

                    by saying you will withhold your votes from the party's nominee if you are not allowed to blatantly break the rules????   Very helpful!  Very conciliatory!

                    I'm sure that eventually there will be some sort of compromised reached that will allow some delegates from FL and MI to attend the convention.  That's what this is really about anyway.  It's not about "counting the votes".   It's about the superdelegates (the elected officials in FL and MI who actually caused this mess!!) getting to attend the convention and be big shots.   They jumped to the front of the line because they wanted to have the pivotal votes in choosing the nominee.   That didn't work out for them.  Now they want to work out a deal at the end of the process where they get to choose the nominee.  It ain't going to happen. Nobody will stand for these jerks getting to be the deciding factor.

                    If you think that the delegates from the other 48 states are going to sit back and let the 2 states that brazenly broke the rules decide who wins the nomination, you are freaking nuts.  It ain't going to happen.

                    These big shots from Fl and MI will get to attend the convention, but they'll end up getting 1/2 votes or they'll be "observers".

                    Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

                    by Mad Kossack on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 11:13:26 AM PDT

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          •  if you are going (4+ / 0-)

            to "count the votes" you need to decide somekind of a reasonable fair argument.  Now, if you say Obama was on the FL ticket, okay, if you then say MI would have to count at least some kind of 'not-Hillary" vote for Obama, and then you have to decide what to do with the actual people who voted in Caucuses, since well, they are voters also.

            See if you count "all the votes" Obama is still ahead in popular votes, delegate count and states won...

            The problem comes in when Clinton wants to selectively "count votes"

            We are fighting hard to remove a President who refigures how to count things when they are not going his way.

            I find it slightly sickening that Clinton supporters love the idea of changing rules, laws, facts and counting methods just so they can show her with some kind of a teeny tiny lead that will be overcome by NC anyhow even with her unfair way of "counting the votes"

            •  You know what I find sickening? (0+ / 0-)

              Candidates who want to ignore my vote because it's politically expedient to do so.

              I am an Edwards Democrat.

              by ThirstyGator on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:35:47 AM PDT

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              •  You might want to take that up... (4+ / 0-)

                with your state officials.  They chose that course.  The rules were set in advance, and Florida and Michigan were told the consequences.  Obama and Edwards followed the rules that were set in advance, Hillary wants to write her own rules.

              •  What about (5+ / 0-)

                candidates who want to count your vote because it's politically expedient to do so, after going on record as accepting that the FL vote was not going to count?

                •  well, those candidates (that candidate) ... (0+ / 0-)

                  wants to count my vote.  Regardless of her reason, that tips me in her favor.

                  I am an Edwards Democrat.

                  by ThirstyGator on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:22:31 AM PDT

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                  •  But she didn't want to count your vote before (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    housesella, sarashina nikki

                    She only decided to count your vote when she fell behind.  One of her senior advisers participated in the planning that lead to the decision to exclude MI and FL , and now he's advocating for them to be counted (so when you talk about "Obama standing in the way" at least be honest enough to recognize that "Clinton put you here in the first place").  

                    Now, I expect that your vote will be counted anyway once it's clear who the nominee will be, but how can you not be appalled at Clinton's hypocrisy over the matter of your vote?  It's abundantly clear that she couldn't give a rat's ass about your participation except that you bolster her chances.

                  •  Doesn't take much to tip you does it? n/t (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Duncan Idaho, housesella

                    I am beginning to feel like a man with no country. That country died when we failed to stand up for what is right.

                    by eaglecries on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 11:54:16 AM PDT

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              •  I think it would be most helpful (0+ / 0-)

                if you directed your anger toward your state party leadership instead of the candidates.
                I understand your frustration, but recognize that there's no fair solution to the problem the state party leadership caused.  What about the people who didn't vote at all because they knew it wouldn't count?  

              •  Which is why I'm pissed about this popular vote (0+ / 0-)

                meme too.  I'm in a caucus state (MN) and we had about two hours to get to the polls in the evening.  Many of those sites were in locations with limited parking and/or limited access to drive there.  Our "Minnesota Cheap" leaders have resisted conversion to primaries for "political expedience," among other things.

                We had 210,000 "voters" that evening.  We have just over 3,000,000 registered voters.  Best case, DFL had 20% turnout on Super Tuesday, if you assume only 1/3 are DFL.  Really, it was more like 10-15% if you count all the independents that caucused with DFL.  Combined with R's, we only had ~300,000, so total turn out was 10%.  Nearly every primary state had 30-40% turnout, so our vote only counts 1/4 to 1/2 of any other primary state.  That imprecision alone is enough of an argument against the "popular vote" counts considering that several states stuck with the caucus system, not knowing that the "real" way to win would be getting the most votes.

                Our vote counts no more than yours if they stick with the 50% penalty for you, but if HRC somehow convinces SDs that popular vote is more important, then I am disenfranchised by the same amount.  The main difference is that the second scenario involves convincing the SDs to change the rules in the middle of the game.


                Look at it this way.  Since we have the EV system, there is little incentive to run up the score.  Remember, states are free to apportion electors any way they want.  Let's assume most of the "blue" states adopt a caucus system (against common sense, but stick with me).  If you take the 2000 scenario, since Gore really won Florida, he would win the Electoral College.  What if W came along and declared himself the winner because he won the popular vote?

                (-7.25, -5.85) "Talk amongst yourselves. The Christian Right: neither Christian nor right. Discuss." --Linda Richman

                by Slartibartfast on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:12:01 AM PDT

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              •  According to your candidate, caucus (0+ / 0-)

                states shouldn't count in the popular vote tally. So much for principal, eh?

                I've always wanted to make a comment that ends with the word Mayonnaise

                by frankzappatista on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:16:35 AM PDT

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                •  they both walked away from principle ... (0+ / 0-)

                  a long time ago.  She wants to count my vote, he does not.

                  I am an Edwards Democrat.

                  by ThirstyGator on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:24:39 AM PDT

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                  •  ThirstyGator (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Duncan Idaho, housesella

                    Let me ask you a simple question. Do you have a problem with rules or following them?

                    It's plain and simple, your elected officials chose to violate a set of rules set forth by a superseding body (DNC) thereby rendering the elections null and void. Which part of that don't you understand? You are barking at the wrong tree!! The people who screwed you up are your elected officials. Quit letting them get away with it.

          •  So you're saying (0+ / 0-)

            the dems who voted in the FL and MI are STUPID. If they didn't know it wasn't going to count, either because there was only ONE candidate who even bothered to show up/be on the ballot, or because they can't be bothered to listen to/read the news on ANY media, that's EXACTLY what you're saying.

            You KNEW it wasn't going to count BEFORE they voted. If you're bent out of shape NOW, that's YOUR problem.

          •  And the millions who didn't? (0+ / 0-)

            Well, they DID consider it a straw poll.  They believed HRC when she said the votes didn't count.  And why wouldn't they?  HRC said it to NH voters to win their votes.  My favorite line from Animal House is, "Hey, you fucked up!  You trusted us!" Sounds like that's your rationale for making unfair contests the decider.

            Fact is, if HRC or the states were willing to accept any sort of fair re-do, it would have been done.  HRC and the states would rather it stay unfair then not, her because she's all in favor of whatever rules help her and the states because they are too cheap to have a do-over.  Go complain to them.

            Hillary says, let's give her campaign another Friedman.

            by Inland on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 11:05:47 AM PDT

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      •  aoeu (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SLKRR, theran, soms

        It was known to be a straw poll shrug

        Do you vote in every straw poll throughout your state?

        I think you know who you should be bitter at.

        turtles consider
        every single vote deeply
        yet always vote dem

        by TealVeal on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:17:03 AM PDT

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        •  You used the word "bitter" (0+ / 0-)

          I don't think the Florida Democrats had no choice but to accept the Republican date change, which was done to screw them over.  The Florida Dems could have had their own election in accordance with the national rules and I'll bet Dean would have helped them pay for it.  The Florida Dem leadership has always insisted they must be allowed to have this go their way and I agree with the DNC instead.

          If I was in Florida, I'd be bitter at the Florida Dem leadership, not the national party.  They're the ones who screwed the Florida Dems.

        •  Dude! Dvorak sighting!! (0+ / 0-)



          Denny Crane: But if he was for gun control, and he voted against it, that makes him ... Shirley Schmidt: A Democrat.

          by Jyrinx on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:50:37 PM PDT

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