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  •  As I just Said to KO (9+ / 0-)

    We agree to disagree.

    Except on one thing: Could you please drop the common -- way too common -- device of blaming Black people's behavior for white folks' racism; to wit, your comment that if Black folks vote for Barack Obama because of a sense that he will right the wrong, they are "legitimizing the fear of the bigot?"  The bigot's fear is irrational, end of story.  There has never been anything to fear.  Unfortunately, we still don't have a politician, male or female, with the cojones enough to say it plain.

    •  white people didn't dream up 'reparations' (6+ / 0-)

      your comment is approximate to reparations; block walking for Obama in Houston I ran across people who asked openly if Obama was going to hoist reparations upon the whites.  

      honestly, barack obama isn't running to be the first black president. he's not running to bear any burden of any community, or to do anything in particular in favor of any black constituency.  

      barack obama believes in universality.  i hope you're read AoH, and in the Race chapter, he eloquently discusses how the most effective and politically just/efficient method for correcting problems inherent in the minority communities is infact true universal improvements whether that's in regulation, job training, education, or infrastructure investments.  

      Your comments somehow seek to diminish obama for doing a politically necessary and in the words of Al Shaprton Tonight on Larry King, "Brave" thing, to go against his own base potentially to denounce Wright's conspiracy theories, 9/11 theories, AIDS theories and personally disrespectful theories as to Obama's political posturing.

      Obama should come out of this stronger and better. If you can get over yourself and look beyond your idenity and Obama's, you'll soon realize he's the one candidate of our lifetime who actually possesses the mental faculty to honor the office of Jefferson and Washington.  I hope you come to your senses by November.

      President Obama will make all American's Proud... regardless of race or identity, as he will seek to make all Americans' lives better equally... living out the Dream.

      •  What (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pHunbalanced, moiv, churchylafemme

        Does reparations (I assume you mean cash, although I prefer reparative justice conceptually whether or not money is involved) have to do with the comment I made or even the original comment you made? I lost you entirely.

        I have read both of Barack Obama's books, starting with his autobiography and they are a great example of the difference between when one writes before becoming a politician and when one writes afterward planning to run for President.  

        And please don't refer to Dr. King's dream.  If you knew anything about that dream (i.e. by actually knowing the entire speech rather than the last 2 minutes of afterthought that we get spoonfed starting in around kindergarden) you'd know that the superficial appearance of equality was categorically NOT Dr. King's dream (hint, it was to have America make good on a "check marked insufficient funds"......)

        •  clarity (0+ / 0-)

          long overdue debt to the descendents of its former slave class.

          how is this not reparations?  

          •  There is a Long Overdue Debt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            churchylafemme

            But that doesn't mean you need reparations to handle it (unless you're talking about something other than money.)  Or do you disagree with the premise?

            •  it's an unpayable debt (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Heart of the Rockies

              there is no program, no amount of money, no moral statement, that can correct the injustice of the institutional racism and program that for decades destroyed inner city communities and ravaged the minority family unit.

              the best thing that can happen for the black community is honestly having a president like Obama who would understand the causes of the plight in this community, while standing up as a role model for the youth in the community and giving hope to a generation of young parents that the cycle can be broken.

              it will take 40 years for the effects to really be seen, but they will be.

              your vote against obama is the greatest disservice you can do to your own race...  for once there is a politician that also understands the causes and symptoms as well as the solutions without seeking victimology or outright blame.  a combination of understanding, compassion, inspiration and tough love.

              I honestly don't understand how you can part with obama after leaving wright behind, who did his best to upstage obama on a national platform, knowing full well how it would play for the audience out there.  obama did what was necessary.

              As a voter, a volunteer, a max donor, i was left sitting there monday night wondering if obama had the spine to part ways with wright. he made me proud today. wright may have been a good man once, but now, he's a sad character. I truly believe wright may have done this either because he had field negro envy or he was seeking to protect his place in society... having a black man in the white house will steal the thunder of wright's sermons... when in truth they should give them new life.  i can't know the man's motives, but i do applaud obama's action. it's the same action i'd expect him to take with a disloyal ally at the nation state level.

              •  How Dare You (4+ / 0-)

                Tell me about what "service" I am "doing for my race" when you don't even share it? Don't you realize that such rhetoric epitomizes the very problem that lead to this nightmarism situation?

                •  What specifically did you want Obama to do? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DrJeremy

                  I am puzzled by what you wanted from him, but did not get. Also, what do you want as reparations, in concrete terms?  I am not putting you down - I just want to know.

                  I support the good guys. In fact, I am the good guys... Now, hand over your money, Prince John, or the teddybear gets it! (Robin Hood, age 6)

                  by bluemass on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 11:02:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's too Long (0+ / 0-)

                    An answer to post as a comment.  But to summarize the answer to the first in a glib nutshell:  be the same badass who forcefully shut down the other bullshit criticisms about his campaign that had nothing to do with race or racism or white folks being afraid of the Jeremiah Wrights of the world or any Black person who shares any minuscule subset of his opinions.

                    •  I think Obama's response... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ybruti, antboy

                      was consistent with someone who felt he had been screwed by a trusted friend.  In that case, he has a right to respond in any way he sees fit.  It seemed genuine to many of us here.  Your identity may give you some insight into Obama that I lack, but it may also color your own expectations of him.

                      I say let Obama be Obama, instead of trying to make him what you expect of the first black president.  It seems to me that Obama isn't a typical ANYTHING.  He's Obama, with a unique identity, personality, and perspective that I can respect as is.  He may not be what you wish, but I think with some consideration you'll remember that he's a hell of a lot more than we're used to settling for.

                      candidpsychiatrist.com - Giving contemporary psychiatry the good spanking it deserves.

                      by candid psychiatrist on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 05:29:20 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Responses Like Yours (0+ / 0-)

                        Really confirm that when it comes to this candidacy, folks are refusing to actually live in the United States of America as it exists today and analyze this candidacy in that framework.  As opposed to some utopia in which a Black person can be "not Black" that simply does not exist.  If Barack Obama were not Black, with expectations about what an appropriate Black candidate should be (post-racial, in the minds of the majority; a poser, in terms of blunt language) none of this would be happening.  It is precisely because he is that this has happened (see John McCain for the counterexample.)  Yet majoritarian folks are all hincty because Black folks like me have the same mindset - he's a Black candidate with expectations accruing to the role - yet have expectations that differ from theirs and run somewhat counter to them, especially when it comes to what it means to be a Black president.

                        •  You seem to want Obama to go back to the past (0+ / 0-)

                          People running for office, especially in divided media-driven societies with a conflicted and often shaemful racial history, do not have the luxury of playing action hero. Yes, it would feel nice for Obama to stand up and denounce those who have exploited Wright, as some of the media clearly have - but then, Wright has said some deeply foolish things.  

                          For example,no serious analyst of AIDS believes it was the result of a government conspiracy, and for Wright to say this, relying on one, rather unusual book was simply wrong.  Equally, Wright is not the black church, but one pastor of a black church.  Trying to drag the black church (or churches, to be more accurate) into his own troubles was a cheap way of playing victim, and was rightly received with some annoyance and disdain.  I don't disagree, by  the way, with his views on the chickens coming home to roost, or God damn America - those are legitimate, if not necessarily popular views.  

                          We don't live in a golden age of reason, or deeply argued political discourse. You can't expect Obama to pretend to do so.  He showed a lot more courage and humanity than many others in his Philadelphia speech, and once Wright decided to cut loose in his Q&A, I don't think Obama had any real choice left.

                          I would also say that Obama has consistently tried to stay out of the race-blame gotcha game - on both sides. He's consistent in this, and I think has won the respect of many people by being so. You can't ask him to go back to what he sees as a destructive way of thinking. He wants to be American, not black, not white - and I think he is absolutely right to do so.

                          I support the good guys. In fact, I am the good guys... Now, hand over your money, Prince John, or the teddybear gets it! (Robin Hood, age 6)

                          by bluemass on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 04:10:48 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  i can tell you whatever you want (0+ / 0-)

                  i'm not disallowed from commenting on the morality of a situation because of a race i may or may not share with you.  

                  plainly, your reasoning for not voting for obama is foolish.  and your explanations are tortured.  you seem to be sitting firmly in a position and becoming more stubborn as more people question you.

                  i'll be blunt. if barack had not done what he did with wright, he would have lost the nomination.  barack was quickly being questioned for his strength. he acted honorably in philly, and after wright disrespected him, he did what he has perfect right to do.

                  your righteous indignation is repugnant.

                  •  Yes (0+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hidden by:
                    Steven R

                    You can say anything you want, including your pop psychology analysis of me.  That's your right.  My right is that I can call you out on the unconscious white supremacist thinking that underlies what you said to me - and how it was said.

                    Which I did.  

                    •  you must be a sad person (0+ / 0-)

                      to call me a white supremacist thinker?  honestly.  think about that for one minute. read my diary history; review the work i've done with the campaign.

                      i'm a skinhead.

                      thanks

                      •  I Did think about it (0+ / 0-)

                        Which is why I wrote what I did.   You presumed, possessing no life experience of being a Black person whatsoever, to tell a Black person expressing her opinion about Black people what is or is not "harmful for Black people".

                        That's white supremacist.  That it was also unconscious on your part doesn't mean anything - it's usually unconscious in us all, because that's how our country and our culture trains white folks to think about non-white people; as if they know anything about what is or is not appropriate for, let alone good for them.

                        Sorry you can't handle that.  Perhaps some Tim Wise will enlighten you.

                        •  look (0+ / 0-)

                          say what you want about me but you don't know me.  my experience is not that of a typical white person. i was part of an interracial marriage for several years during which I did see the world through a different set of eyes. Being the only white person at christmas or new years on chicago's south side certainly lends one to a different perspective.  presently i'm in a similar situation within a latino family.  personally, i don't have any personal prejudices.  i look beyond race.  your own racial pride however clouds your vision and convinces you that you're somehow in a position to judge obama for actions he took in his own self defense and which were required by the situation. to quote the reverend on good morning america this morning, wright was 'tripping' and obama had to come out to shut that shit down.  

                          be as righteous as you want, but you should look beyond that day and moment and celebrate the candidate for the policies he stands for.

                          •  Who Cares about your Interracial Marriage (0+ / 0-)

                            There are a lot of folks in interracial marriages, myself included.  IME, folks in them show as much insight or lack thereof on the issue of race in people do in mainstream marriages and sometimes a lot less.  IME, often they adopt an entirely ostriching position on the issue of race since it's emotionally quite painful at times to be in one and confront both self-identity issues having been raised in our white supremacist culture and the lack of understanding from outsiders to the marriage (speaking from personal experiences.)  Even worse, many raise kids that are completely confused on the issue of race and haunted by it once they leave the nest, IMO because they have had had little guidance and training in personal pride and strength in terms of being "not white', due to the utopian rather than reality-based beliefs of their parents, who believed that telling them "it doesn't matter" was better than telling their kids the sad truth and teaching them how to both live in and combat a racist world.

                            But all that is secondary.  You continue even in this post to try and tell me what I should do instead of just expressing your opinion plain, and now have gone to the "I have/had Black friends" (in your case wife) to bolster your argument. And thus continue to prove my point.

                          •  my point was i have perspective (0+ / 0-)

                            and this is pointless. you're completely self absorbed. your postulating is a disservice to your political objectives. to call our society white suprimacist puts you in the same boat as white IMO.  it's NOT

                            good day

                          •  Good Day to You Too! (0+ / 0-)

                            I do recommend that Tim Wise reading.

                          •  Our society, imho, (0+ / 0-)

                            was built to a large degree on, and continues to benefit from, white supremacism, and we can't heal racial problems without acknowledging that.

                            -3.12, -5.90
                            Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                            by AaronInSanDiego on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:44:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  benefit (0+ / 0-)

                            That was probably not worded well. I didn't mean to suggest that I think white supremacism is a good thing for our society.

                            -3.12, -5.90
                            Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                            by AaronInSanDiego on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:53:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  It's a matter of time (0+ / 0-)

                It's the changing of the old guard.

                Watching the complete tapes, the NAACP meeting - all of it -- sure does remind me of a bunch of old 1960's southern country clubbers hanging on to the last shred of outrage over changes.
                Some of their kids like Obama get it, but they don't know they're supposed to be embarrased when they talk like that yet.

                Just check the birth years and you get the "Oh yeah" --

                1941 for Wright? (in the Marines an 1961??!!) -- a great education doesn't make you immune from the times of your society. He was a bright kid coming up at the worst of times.

                1962 for Obama? Couldn't even be drafted let alone shafted. Hawaii, not Harlem - Punahoe prep school, not some MLK anywhere underfunded gladiator academy.

                Excuse him if he refuses to kiss the ring -- he knows the old ways have to go.

                Just give us boomers (and the leadership born in the 30's to 40's like Wright) another few decades to die off.

                In the meantime, you'll just have to ignore us when we break wind at formal events or act the fool at what should be a dignified retirement party.

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