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View Diary: Eco-diary #3:  The human side of the issue (43 comments)

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  •  Here's what we need to think about: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    linkage

    Question about Global Warming

    My brother and I are going rounds about Global Warming. He is a staunch conservative so obviously doesn't believe it is real.

    How can I counter this with facts? Or can I, seeing as how he believes everything he hears on radio is a fact.

    See above about "facts".

    An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

    by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:34:19 PM PDT

    •  Conservatives are most often... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      linkage, don mikulecky

      anti-intellectual.  Anti-intellectual people resent people with book knowledge and normally reject it in favor of their own personal "local" knowledge of how the world functions.

      These people will never accept the fact that "global warming" as an Earth phenomena exists, because they are  most likely unable to even fathom their pathetically unimportant place in the universe.

      The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

      by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:50:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As the effects imact on their lives more and more (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        linkage

        their sources will become less credible.  it has happened before.  We need to keep sending our message.

        An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

        by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:55:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We have a window of opportunity... (4+ / 0-)

          to vehicule a scientific world-view--it is between the ages of 6-12.

          Sadly, young people do not get adequate science education and in many places everything they learn in school is nullified by what they are taught in Sunday "school."

          I am a cynic...as an environmental historian, I have studied human interaction with nature in the past 500 years.

          We are not just doomed as a species, we are fucking doomed.

          The society that we live in will not exist in 200 years.  

          The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

          by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 05:59:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nor will it exist tomorrow (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bob Guyer, linkage

            Change is the only thing constant.  The underlying message in Sagan's thesis is our complete arrogance about our knowledge.  In our subculture, (yours and mine) this is especially dangerous.  Much of progressive political change has come from the very same uneducated people we stereotype as conservative know nothings.  Native American wisdom did not need our educational system and was largely destroyed by it.  The idea of finding new ways is always open.

            An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

            by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:11:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Native American "wisdom" is a fallacy... (4+ / 0-)

              Native Americans did not have environmentally-friendly socieites.

              In fact, historical and scientific literature of the past decade have shown that they were very destructive of the environment.  They slashed and burned, they over-fished, and they hunted species to extinction.

              The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

              by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:19:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What you say is both true and an example of how (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                linkage, saildude

                part of the story can give the opposite picture to what the more complete story will.  The scale with which they had impact was much less.  They also adapted their practices when they discovered the adverse effects. Their view of the Earth system is very progressive over all.  The propaganda about them that you quote was selected to make sure the other aspects of their beliefs and behavior were not accepted,  I have documented my statements and can do much much more.  I doubt you can do the same.

                An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:28:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I'm sorry...you're simply not correct here. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lemming22, linkage, saildude

                  I suggest you read:

                  http://www.amazon.com/...

                  And then this book:

                  http://www.amazon.com/...

                  You're not really up to date on the historiography of environmental history.

                  The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

                  by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:34:19 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As I said I gave you references and quotes. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    linkage

                    De Loria is a fine source on environmental history and disagrees with you.  It sounds like your sources are biased.  Amazon.com ?  I'd say that you are the one who is not up on environmental history.  I granted the biased view you give is a small part of the story.  You seem to want to sit on your little segment as if it were universal.  It clearly is not.

                    An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                    by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 06:58:52 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're kidding me... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lemming22, linkage

                      I gave you a link to where you can buy the books.

                      This is not "biased" information...these are classics of environmental and ecological historical literature.

                      They are far more scientific and academic than a Dkos diary.  

                      You might want to spend a bit more time learning about this subject before you write about it.

                      I'm unfortunately learning that blogs perpetuate an enormous amount of misinformation and bs.

                      The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

                      by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:04:35 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  OK I found this about one of your authors (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        linkage

                        Cronon suggests that Global Narratives are abstract, virtual, systemic, remote, vast, have a diffuse sense of agency, posses no individual characters (i.e. no heros/villains), and are repetitive (so boring). These characteristics make it difficult to emphasise and justify calls for human action to mitigate against the anthropic influence on the climate.

                         You are kidding me.  I gave you the book by De Loria not a Daily Kos diary.  What is it you are up to?

                        An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                        by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:10:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Cute donut there buddy....you know what... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          lemming22

                          you might want to listen more.  I'm quite sure that I happen to know more about this than you do.  7

                          I happen to have a doctorate in Environmental History...and I NEVER heard of this De Loria.  

                          I will never, ever, engage in a discussion with you again.

                          Utter foolishness.

                          The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

                          by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:15:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You were not engaging in discussion. Diatribe is (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            linkage

                            not discussion.

                            I happen to have a doctorate in Environmental History...and I NEVER heard of this De Loria.  

                             The reference is in my diary.

                            Native American "wisdom" is a fallacy...
                            Native Americans did not have environmentally-friendly socieites.

                            This is not a true statement as posed and your Amazon.com links do not say it is.  I granted you that is a part truth and offered you De Loria as one other view.  If you think you can convince anyone that this is universally true then try.  

                            Now as to its relevance to my diary.  I never said word one about the practices of the native Americans with respect to the environment.  What I did do was to talk about their religious world view and its similarity to some aspects of Sagan's book.

                            Don't lecture me about bad discussion tactics sir.  You are the guilty party.  Any time you want to discuss my diary subject do so.  Flaunting your bias about Native Americans by pointing out that they did not live 100% according to their  beliefs is certainly off topic.  No culture has ever lived totally according to stated beliefs.  So what is your point if you have one?

                            An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                            by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:30:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And, you need to go read the Dkos FAQ.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lemming22

                            for a starter...

                            Because giving other users HR's simply because they state something that you disagree with is not appropriate.

                            And, you might want to consider that I took the time to come in here and discuss your diary with you, and even congratulated you.

                            It is wonderful to see people interested in discussing topics related to the environment and wishing to educate others.  But, you're just simply wrong on this point.  I can only suggest that you take the time to educate yourself.

                            I'm sorry to see that you lack the maturity to take any criticism of your ideas.

                            My "yahoo" links were intended to give you some additional literature to read and consider.

                            As I said, you won't have to worry about me in any more of your diaries.

                            The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

                            by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:38:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your "you need tos" along with the diatribe (0+ / 0-)

                            are what got you the donuts.  I did not give them to you for disagreements.  I even granted you the nasty diversion from the diary topic in an effort to get back on track.  No, it is your troll like use of another's diary to flaunt your "expertise" rather than discuss the diary that are at fault.  I stand behind my judgement about you.  You are not what you profess to be.  You have not answered one of my points.  That is how trolls behave.  You claim to have read the dKos FAQ but like other things you claim to know about, your understanding seems lacking.

                            An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                            by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:51:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh please.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lemming22

                            The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. --Thomas Paine

                            by David Kroning on Sun May 11, 2008 at 07:55:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You still can't deal with it can you? (0+ / 0-)

                            Answer these questions:

                            What does the stuff you cited do to counter my citation about Native American religious beliefs?

                            What does your field of expertise have to do with anything in this diary?

                            What do the practices of Native Americans have to do with the subject of this diary?

                            Why do you feel that it is appropriate to use expressions like

                            Native American "wisdom" is a fallacy...

                            No, I'm sorry...you're simply not correct here.

                             without any clue what in the diary is being commented on?  For if you were to try you would have to apologize for not sticking to the diary topic.  I hope you do not do this professionally.  You would not get through a tenure hearing in any University I have been associated with.

                            An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                            by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:06:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Memo: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            don mikulecky

                            Read / study sig. line

                          •  I wish I knew who this is for and which sig line. (0+ / 0-)

                            Sorry for being obtuse!

                            An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                            by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:21:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Memo was for DK, although he is likely gone. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bob Guyer, linkage, don mikulecky

                            BTW, Perhaps we are not so limited by our language as we think: link

                            Humility, as Michael Casey, a Cistercian monk of Tarawara Abbey in Australia has written, is etymologically of the same root as earth, humus, and connotes, among other things, a going down to the essential substance of reality, to the place out of which all things grow. It is being in consonance with the truth.

                          •  That is neat! The concept is deeper than I (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            linkage

                            realized.  I did not write about the section in Sagan about what happened to the astronauts as they looked back on earth.  Some of that in there too.

                            An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                            by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:47:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  You speak with forked tongue (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        linkage

                        Here's a comment elsewhere:

                        I don't like to over-intellectualize things...
                        especially in a blog.

                        An idea is not responsible for who is carrying it. It stands or falls on its own merits.

                        by don mikulecky on Sun May 11, 2008 at 08:52:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  To survive off the land (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Bob Guyer, linkage, don mikulecky

                should not be taken lightly. The accumulated knowledge required to thrive in the past is something we have lost for the most part.

                As a modern day sailor I can tell you that my admiration and respect for the achievements and skills of those that preceded us grows with my own experiences.

                It seems we are no longer capable of repeating lost skills required for survival over a large segment of our population.

                Perhaps this truly is the meaning of the meek inheriting the earth, those who struggle and manage to survive without the modern edge will succeed where our own society would grind to a halt with a multi day power or oil disruption.

                Or not

              •  To be fair ... (4+ / 0-)

                ... slash and burn farming, done properly, is extremely sustainable -- and efficient.  Given the choice, IIRC, almost every preindustrial farmer chose slash-and-burn techniques over more intensive agricultural practices.

                Now, that doesn't mean that they did it right.

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