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View Diary: Shut Your Fucking Pie-Hole... (381 comments)

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  •  No, YOU didn't know that back then... (2.80)
    ... I did.

    It does a lot for my ego to know I had a better analytical understanding of the Iraq situation than both Presidential candidates did.  I have better foreign policy instincts than Bush or Kerry.

    Hot dog!

    •  I give... (3.50)
      ...in your world EVERYBODY was positive that he was no threat at all and you are a genius and the rest of us are all idiots.

      That's your world.

      Want to beat Bush... it's the LIES, stupid.

      by JeffLieber on Sun Sep 19, 2004 at 10:51:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I get the game you are playing (2.46)
        But I was smarter than you on this subject, man.  You thought Saddam had WMD... you were wrong.  OK?  It's not too complicated.  You and Kerry bought this WMD story, thought it might be true... he wasn't able to grasp the situation.  He got put in the spot, and he made the wrong choice.  It's a shame his mistake has a body-count, but...

        It's OK to be wrong.  Kerry was wrong.  He made a mistake.  Foreign policy isn't his strong suit.  He's no Bob Graham.

        •  You are living in the past (none)
          "was...
          thought...
          were ...
          bought...
          thought...
          wasn't...
          got...
          made...
          was...
          made..."

          And we have a very short time to do something about the future.  Snap out of it!

        •  please calm down (none)
          BigNTasty, I've generally liked your posts over most of the year, but in the last few days you're losing your grip. I recommend that you take a break from dKos for a few days. I've had to take that same step myself a few times this year, when politics just plain made me crazy.

          I could take exactly the same positions you are taking here. Like you claim, I also never believed Saddam had WMDs and would not have voted to authorize war if I had been in Kerry's shoes. But I'm darn sure not castigating all my fellow Democrats the way you are! Maybe you and I are special geniuses in our tremendous "knowledge" in advance that Saddam was already declawed. I doubt it.

          I take Kerry at his word. I think he has a lot more credibility than you or more.

    •  So, Given What You Think ... (4.00)
      ... of Kerry, what's your solution for November 2?

      If you're backing Kerry, and working for him, that's great. This is no time for this discussion. It's counterproductive.

      If you're planning on voting for Cobb, Nader, the SWP candidate,writing in Mickey Mouse, or sitting out this election, thanks alot ... you're really helping us get this country moving forward ...

      vote early - vote often

      by wystler on Sun Sep 19, 2004 at 11:12:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You know something? (4.00)
      For a long time, I've rolled my eyes in disgust at the whole thing, because I knew it was bullshit, too.

      But the simple fact is that many, many intelligent people (more intelligent than I, certainly, and possibly even than yourself) who should have known better... did not. They might even have had access to, I dunno, confusing intelligence reports that might have clouded the issue further for them.

      I've stopped blaming the people who bought the bullshit and am concentrating solely on the people who SOLD the bullshit.

      It's simplified my life; I recommend it.

      Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

      by Maryscott OConnor on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 12:05:58 AM PDT

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      •  That's A Reasonable Position, but... (3.50)
        ....it still doesn't explain why Kerry continues to say that he would vote the same way again given what he knows today, especially since he made crystal cleat at the time of the IWR vote that the only reason he was voting for it was to disarm Saddam.

        I'd be a lot more sympathetic if Kerry said, "I thought he had WMDs.  I believe what the president said about needing authority to go to the UN and renew inspections.  It turns out I was wrong on both counts.  Knowing what I know now I wouldn't vote for the IWR. Real leaders own up to their mistakes.  George Bush never does.  I just did."

        However, Kerry hasn't said anything remotely like this.  My concern isn't a lack of clarity from JFK (lest I fall under the SYFP fatwa), it's Kerry's own taste for militarism and/or his willingness to be rolled by those who support it in order to look tough and steadfast in a Bushian sort of way.

        In a "safe" state? Consider a vote for David Cobb, the Green Party's candidate for President.

        by GreenSooner on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 06:17:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because (none)
          we still needed to get inspectors in.

          You're talking about hypotheticals here, and most people don't care. They just want to know what we're gonna do next to get our soldiers out of that hellhole.

          Quite frankly, I don't care, myself. It's in the past. The war is raging right now, and it needs to stop.

          •  Basically I Agree... (none)
            ...that we should be talking about the present, not the past, which is why Kerry's saying he'd have voted the same way knowing what we know now is what really disturbs me.  He is talking about the present when he says that.  It's not Kerry's purported lack of clarity I object to (I find his position plenty clear), nor what Kerry did in the past.  It's his continuing commitment to militarism (admittedly of a smarter and more cautious sort than Dubya's) that bothers me.

            But as long as we're talking about the past ("we still needed to get inspectors in") there was an alternative resolution that would have required Bush to return to Congress to authorize unilateral use of force.  The IWR was not the only way to get the leverage for inspectors.  (And I'm not sure that we so needed to get inspectors in that we had to risk Chimpy doing what we all knew he'd do with the authority.)

            In a "safe" state? Consider a vote for David Cobb, the Green Party's candidate for President.

            by GreenSooner on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 06:42:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Shorter me (none)
              It's a moot fucking point. Nobody cares. Let it go.

              It's really not important. It's the answer to a hypothetical question.

              And if you really think a guy who's seen the horrors of war is gung-ho to get this country into another one, you're crazy. Or you're torturing yourself for no bloody good reason.

              I just saw his reply to a death-penalty question from a 1996 debate, and he said something like, "Look. I've killed people before. I don't like killing."

              There were other resolutions floating around—most notably Biden-Lugar, which they couldn't get the votes for—but there was also an earlier iteration that gave Bush even more latitude. So they did what they could do.

              Have you read the speech he made when he cast that vote? Somebody put it up in a diary last night. Maybe if you read that (it's long; bring a snack), you'll get a glimpse into his thought processes, and you might feel a little more comfortable with him.

          •  The inspectors WERE in (none)
            they were in by December, 2002.  There was a multiple thousand page report submitted in December, most of which the public still hasn't seen because so much of it was redacted for "national security" reasons.  

            The biggest lie that has been told and that everyone bought for too long was the "Saddam kicked the inspectors out" and the "Saddam will not let them back in" that Bush Co. picked up on.  He did let them back in. There were inspectors on the ground and had to be recalled so that Bush could wage his invasion.

            "Consult the genius of the place in all things" - Alexander Pope

            by a gilas girl on Mon Sep 20, 2004 at 11:05:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  It's not just you, you arrogant sob (4.00)
      It was me too. I knew. And my friend Vic. He knew. My husband knew. So did my friends Mary, and Lee Ann.

      There was plenty of info in the press A YEAR before the invasion, when the debate was heating up, about who wanted the war and who didn't (civilians at pentagon vs military brass) and the things the military brass said made more sense.

      We were all writing feverishly to our senators to NOT vote for the resolution. But at the time, Bush's ratings were extrememly high and the Rs were doing a great job of painting any dissent as lack of patriotism. The D leadership let it happen. Period.

      Let's not obscure the truth. We all want to win, but the vote to "give Bush a big stick" was wrong at the time, not just with hindsight, and the result of a Senate more intent on doing what is popular than what is right. Kerry has to live with this baggage as he runs.

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