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View Diary: Morris, Oklahoma. Pop: 1,319 (126 comments)

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  •  This is similar to asking why we need (4+ / 0-)

    the government for social programs and taxation when we could just give to charity. Sometimes it is an issue of willingness, sometimes it is an issue of infrastructure. Either way, it is not getting done as it is.

    Most people actually doing the good works (see Catholic Worker movement, Dorothy Day) could care less about the dogma. They chose their religion because it matched their sense of humanity, and they could care less about collecting souls for the lord. At least that has been my experience working with local charities.

    You both seem to prefer a universe in which the other person hasn't magically disappeared. I think we have a framework for peace. -Jimmy Carter, as himself

    by sanglug on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:42:03 AM PDT

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    •  Don't be ridiculous. Your neighbors can't (0+ / 0-)

      guarantee your student loans. They can't set up single-payer medical coverage for you. That's what the government is in business to do. Everything those local churches do in a town of 1000, the neighbors could, do without the middleman.

      Don't get me wrong, churches have a role. They should shake down the rich to help the poor (they can do it more effectively than government, if they are honest about it). They can redistribute resources from wealthy areas to non-wealthy ones. But how many of them do?

      •  What do you do when the town is not wealthy? n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        droogie6655321

        You both seem to prefer a universe in which the other person hasn't magically disappeared. I think we have a framework for peace. -Jimmy Carter, as himself

        by sanglug on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:52:56 AM PDT

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        •  Then the churches should be in the wealthy towns, (0+ / 0-)

          not in the poor ones, don't you think? Yet that isn't really the case. I actually think that there may be some causation between being poor and having a church every 50-100 people, don't you think?

          •  Heh, perhaps they cling. ;-) n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catte Nappe

            You both seem to prefer a universe in which the other person hasn't magically disappeared. I think we have a framework for peace. -Jimmy Carter, as himself

            by sanglug on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:00:04 AM PDT

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          •  so poor people (0+ / 0-)

            don't deserve to have their own places of worship?  That's nice.  With the price of gas being so high, do you also think the rich people should go pick them up and drive them to these mythical "wealthy towns" so they can go to their worship services and all the other fellowship gatherings, like the church suppers and stuff?  I'm sure that would be no problem at all - the rich people will just love to chauffer all those poor people around in their fancy cars with them.  While they're at it, they might as well take them to their doctor and dentist appointments, and pick up the school supplies for the kids... because, you know, the rich folks have no idea what to do with their time or their money, so why not?  Hey, I've got an idea - the rich folks could just invite the poor ones to MOVE IN WITH THEM - and then they wouldn't have to be poor any more!  Brilliant!

            I can definitely see that happening.

            \snark

            'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

            by lcork on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:11:24 AM PDT

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            •  How terrible would it be to have to worship with (0+ / 0-)

              your whole town together instead of your 50 friends...!

              It's incredible how one's words get twisted so that you can remain comfortably in your ignorance.

              Rich people driving poor people around? If you asked Christ, YES, he would said pretty much, drive them around, and pay for the fuel, and STFU. As, do others who are worshipped by non-Christians.

              If there is somebody who needs to hear the word of god day in, day out it's the wealthy. The miserable and the afflicted are already near god. Nothing wrong with helping your neighbor even if you are poor, but then again, it would be a good idea to worship together with your neighbor, too.

              Paraphrasing Christ, of course, but I'm pretty sure I'm closer to the substance than a 9 or 10 of those 12 preachers, and I am just as entitled to do it.

              •  well in lots of places (0+ / 0-)
                the town is so small that that's how they do it... but your comment was that poor towns shouldn't have churches - that only the wealthy towns should have them.  So y'know it wouldn't be worshipping with your whole town - in your scenario it would be not having place in your town to worship at all because you had committed the hideous offense of being poor.  Or, having to travel however far you had to travel to get to one of those blessed, "wealthy towns" that were worthy (in your scenario) of having their own church.

                I don't go to church myself, but I understand that those who do often derive great comfort from it in times of trouble - or at least some of them do.  I would think that economic stress (otherwise known as being poor) would be one of those times it would be nice to have a the comfort of people IN YOUR OWN COMMUNITY that you know and know you can rely on to be there for you when the going gets tough.  I don't think one's economic status in the community or the community's economic viability ought to be the determining factor for whether or not consenting people get together to do whatever it is they do when they worship whomever or whatever they worship - and whatever other activities they do together, because from what I understand, living as I do in the so-called bible belt - when you belong to a church, there are a lot of other activities that go on there besides just showing up on Saturday or Sunday for an hour.

                'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

                by lcork on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:21:20 AM PDT

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                •  I'm going to see this only once: (0+ / 0-)

                  Stop trolling for an argument by putting words like 'worthy' in my mouth and twisting what I said into something that is completely the opposite.

                  You can make your other points without that, but frankly, I have no desire to read on past the first paragraph of your post as it is. You can try again if you want.

      •  in towns that small (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe, sanglug, allep10

        the churches are the organizing bodies for the community - the social network.  It's just easier to organize a food pantry for hungry folks using the church network as a starting point than it is to start from scratch.

        And just an observation on this comment:  

        Don't get me wrong, churches have a role. They should shake down the rich to help the poor

        in my experience, it's usually the people who have the least to give who are the most generous - in church or outside of it.  Possibly because they know what it's like to need to ask for help.

        'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

        by lcork on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:00:05 AM PDT

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        •  Do you know the meaning of the word SHOULD? (0+ / 0-)

          If the rich were giving readily and without some prodding (1) they wouldn't be rich; (2) there wouldn't be a need for churches and other charities to convince them, no?

          Instead the poor sure do give, hey they even give to maintain 10-11 extra parasite preachers in a town of 1300...

          •  Well yes, actually I do (0+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:
            power2truth

            because I went to Yale, and we learned even more complicated things than the definition of the word "should" while I was there - amazing isn't it?  

            As for the rest of your comment, your incredible disdain for poor people disgusts me.

            Have a lovely day.

            'The votes are in, and we won.' - Jim Webb, 11/07/2006

            by lcork on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:36:50 AM PDT

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            •  I suggest you take your last paragraph back now. (0+ / 0-)

              It brings shame on you, and your alma mater too, since you had the crassness to bring it up and pretty much call me an elitist in the same breath.

              I know a few people from Yale, and it would baffle me that winning arguments by making up a fake strawman of the other's point was part of the curriculum. But of course, it isn't.

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