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View Diary: District Court: What FISA Did, What the FISA Capitulation Does (244 comments)

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  •  no, we shouldn't accept it blindly, We should (0+ / 0-)

    continue to work to support the "good" Democrats, criticizing them when they're wrong without repudiating our own strategy of electing more and better Democrats, and oppose the "bad" Democrats, as best we can. If you're suddenly realizing that supporting that strategy is morally unacceptable because there aren't currently enough "good" Democrats in Congress to support -- then how about you get to work to build an alternative? and I'm talking get to work now for the 2012 Presidential election, because it's too goddamned late for 2008.

    the "childish" part is not understanding the facts about how Congress works -- i.e., lamenting that Pelosi could've just done nothing, or that Obama could've killed the bill with a snap of his fingers -- without understanding or knowing that Blue Dog Democrats warned Pelosi back in January they were ready to join with the GOP in signing a discharge petition to force an UP/DOWN vote, thus ensuring the passage of the GOP's (worse) version of FISA. IMO, it would've been better "politics" for Pelosi to do just that, force the Blue Dogs to join publicly with the GOP, but make no mistake -- it would've been just as "political" a decision -- and would've provoked a hell of a lot more gloating from the GOP, too.

    •  here's the thing, though (4+ / 0-)

      most people are opposed to this kind of spying, when the question is asked in the 'right' way.

      And that's what it's all about: getting hold of the message. Democrats have done a damned lousy job of that, for whatever reason. But this is a key point of designing polls and surveys: construct the question to get the information you want. Sometimes even to get the answers you want.

      Pelosi should have forced the issue, she should have done so in a way that framed the question to support the correct position - no immunity. Let it work its way through the system; no blanket immunity. People do want to know what the hell is going on. Those who aren't absorbed into America's Got no Talent, or whatever, anyhow.

      Frankly, cynically, they were more afraid of the power that the telecom companies have with money and the ability to drive a message that would protect themselves, that they were about the Blue Dogs.

      And that's why I'm cynical, and why Congress has an even lower approval rating (at least at times) than Bush.

      Civil marriage is a civil right.

      by stitchmd on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:50:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  agreed. see my post below. (0+ / 0-)

        I'm cynical too, I've been cynical for 30 years about "the Democrats" (it was about 30 years ago that I first signed up as a Green voter), but one thing that time has proved is that cynicism and disengagement from the electoral system by progressives in the U.S. has done nothing but make things worse, and allowed the Democratic Party to drift further and further right. I truly believe in the strategy of using the Democratic Party, taking back the Democratic Party, and organizing on the ground to elect  progressive Democrats who better represent the best interests of everyday Americans -- and in the meantime working to ensure a Democratic majority in Congress and a Democratic President in the White House -- but that doesn't mean I'm not cynical about politics or about business as usual Democrats. I just don't believe that disengagement works to influence things for the better.

    •  Here's the thing about "how Congress works" (4+ / 0-)

      It's all just guessing until somebody does it.

      •  yes, as I wrote, and as I've written elsewhere, (0+ / 0-)

        IMO, it likely would've been better "politics", let alone the right thing to do, for Pelosi to have stood her ground, and washed her hands of the matter, forcing the Blue Dog Dems to publicly join with the GOP to get FISA passed.

        maybe they would've backed down, who knows until you try?, I agree, although I personally doubt they would've backed down -- but I'm all on board the idea that a public fight in the House from "Constitution-defending Democrats" could've led to a positive outcome. That the public -- not just us usual suspects who subscribe to the ACLU list -- would've been aroused once they understood better what this was about, and more Senators, possibly enough to derail it, could've been nudged into opposing FISA.  Certainly, one positive outcome that could've been expected is that those who think of "the Democrats" in Congress as one monolithic block, could've learned better.

        There's nothing "childish" about suggesting any of that, nothing "childish" about any of the criticism and suggestions for organizing that come from you, Kagro. What's "childish" is believing, like many commenters here, that defeating FISA in the House would've been easy, that all Pelosi had to do was "nothing," and the issue would go away, because after all Democrats are in the majority, right? That Obama could've snapped his fingers and instructed the likes of Sen. Feinstein to change her support of FISA, simply because he'd just become the (presumptive) nominee of the Dem Party. What's "childish" is to have believed that we elected  a Progressive Democratic majority to Congress in 2006 simply because we elected a few more Democrats (some more progressive than others). What's "childish" is to expect pro-Iraq-invasion, pro-Patriot Act, Very Serious National Security Democrats like Feinstein and Clinton, reelected by overwhelming margins in their primaries, despite challenges by anti-Iraq, anti-Patriot Act Democrats (one of whom Jonathon Tasini posts here, despite mostly being ignored, and being totally ignored by the front page, as far as I remember), to suddenly change their stripes and become Feingold Democrats because Dems hold a sort of majority in the Senate. what's "childish" is giving up at the last minute, suddenly realizing a few months before November that not all Democrats are Feingold Democrats, and refusing to support our Democratic nominee for President in every way we can. Those who are unable to support the Democratic candidate for President based on the reasons presented here in the last couple of weeks should've realized that years and years ago -- and if they were serious -- they should've gotten to work on building a true alternative a long time ago.

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