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View Diary: Obama's statement on FISA is "worthless" (174 comments)

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  •  Someone's gotta have your back, chechecule (15+ / 0-)

    And I guess it'll be me.

    The statement was ridiculous.

    But not as ridiculous as the finger-in-the-ear Kossacks who can't abide simple disagreement within the coalition.

    Nobody's being purist. Nobody's saying we want Obama to lose. Nobody's saying we're going to vote for Nader.

    Instead we're living in the reality-based community, along with a huge chunk of the netroots, who all believe that progressive policy values are so important that we will not put them aside just because a bunch of timid folks can't deal with the fact that we still support Obama even though we deeply disagree with him on this.

    Put it this way: Obama can deal with our disagreement. Why can't all of you?

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:50:57 PM PDT

    •  Do you think that Obama thinks (5+ / 0-)

      that your disagreement, aired in public like this, is more likely to result in him winning in November?  If so, then I guess you should continue, since he thinks you are helping.  If not, then please keep it to yourself and let him beat McCain.

      •  He doesn't give a shit. (8+ / 0-)

        Really. Honestly. Truly.

        Obama does not care whether we air our disagreement in public. If one reads his statement he claims to welcome it. He knows we'll still vote for him anyway.

        So if Obama isn't worried...why are you?

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:54:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think he does care (7+ / 0-)

          He knew he had to talk about this in public, particularly because the MSM is picking up on it.
          If you really think he is indifferent or happy about this becoming a major news item, I think you're missing something here.  In fact, I suspect you're being sarcastic, since you say that he "claims" to welcome it.
          Let the man stay on message and run his campaign, instead of having to be distracted by dealing with his own supporters' complaints.

          •  He cares... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YetiMonk, satanicpanic, robertacker13

            ...about respecting his supporters. If he shared the Kossack full-on freak-out he wouldn't have responded the way he did.

            But, I love the irony - we who criticize the statement for its language on FISA are putting you in the position of criticizing the statement because it doesn't try to silence dissent.

            If Obama doesn't feel the need to silence and stifle dissent...why do you?

            I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
            Neither is California High Speed Rail

            by eugene on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:01:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're missing the point (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Christin, geejay, Jezreel, Alohilani

              He had to say what he said.  What else could he say to diffuse the situation?  As a practical matter, could he publicly state that liberals should STFU about this?  That would really be smart politics, wouldn't it.
              He still wishes it never happened and would go away.  I'm surprised to hear that you are naive enough to think that he is pleased by the pressure being placed on him over this issue from his most passionate supporters.

              •  A President who can't admit his mistakes? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YetiMonk, satanicpanic

                Haven't we had enough of that already?

                "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:13:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't know what you're saying (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Christin, geejay, Alohilani

                  First of all, he's not President yet.
                  Second of all, what mistake should he admit to?  Should he admit that his current perspective on FISA (which includes his statement that he will do what he can to remove telcom immunity from the Senate version) is a mistake?  Should he admit that his earlier statements about FISA were mistaken?  I don't see that there is any "mistake" for him to admit.  He is taking a pragmatic approach based on the present situation.  If it helps him get elected, so much the better.  If you hurt his chances of getting elected, so much the worse.

                  •  If FISA were to hurt his chances (0+ / 0-)

                    which it won't since most Americans don't even know their rights well enough to see when they're losing them, Obama would have only himself to blame.

                    "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                    by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:34:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  First of all, who cares if he only has himself (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Christin, Jezreel, Alohilani

                      to blame?  I just want him to win, I don't want him to lose in a way that so you can feel blameless.
                      Second of all, I think his position is more likely to help him win.  But I think that your complaining about it in public reverses a lot of that gain.  In other words, he may gain 3% with his new position on FISA, but lose 4% as a result of your carping about the issue and making him look bad.  So you may be turning a potential gain into a loss.  All for a bill that he is likely to modify when he gets in the White House.  I can't think of a more naive, self-destructive position than the one you are taking, although I don't dispute the strength of your principles.
                      This is a must win election.  I don't know why you would want to jeopardize that just to maintain the purity of your principles (and your need to publicize them over the internet).

                      •  I'm a lifelong Democrat (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        YetiMonk

                        but I'm an American first - Democrat second.

                        "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                        by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:44:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  If you're an American first, (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Jezreel, Alohilani

                          you'll do everything you can to help Obama win.  Keep your eye on the ball.  We must end this nightmare of Republican rule.  This country is in terrible trouble as a result of what the Repubs have done over the last 8 years; hell, over the last 28 years.  Do your patriotic duty as an American and do everything you can to ensure Obama's election.

                          •  Our responsibility as an Americans (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            YetiMonk

                            goes far beyond electing Obama.

                            "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                            by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:52:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is pointless (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Jezreel

                            If you think that in 2008 your responsibility is anything other than to ensure Obama's victory over McCain, then I am wasting my time.  If indeed you are a Democrat, then you are just like the purist Nader voters who saw no difference in 2000 between Bush and Gore.  I spent too many hours trying to convince them that the difference between those 2 candidates was as wide as the Grand Canyon; they wouldn't listen, and now there is a special place in Hell waiting for them.
                            I hope you see the light.  If not, I hope McCain doesn't win and put you in Guantanamo.

                          •  if you really think mccain has a chance (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            chechecule, Sagebrush Bob

                            then you should be very frightened over the new powers that the FISA bill would give him.

                          •  Apparently he's more frightened by dissent (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            YetiMonk

                            And I used to think that was just a Republican problem.

                            "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                            by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:02:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Come to think of it (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            YetiMonk

                            Passing this FISA bill will help quell dissent.

                            "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                            by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:04:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  fear motivated (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sagebrush Bob

                            people in both parties are ruled by it or the last 8 years would never have happened.

                          •  Actually... (0+ / 0-)

                            This is a very good point. If people are so unconcerned about Obama's support of FISA and the gutting of the 4th Amendment, has anybody thought what would happen if for whatever unlikely reason a republican is elected in November?

                            This possibility should beat all kinds of fear-mongering, except that it is justified.

              •  Ah, but that IS the point. Exactly it. (5+ / 0-)

                I think he also had to say what he's saying about FISA. It's a necessary if logically ridiculous position, but one that's more likely to land him in the White House than a brutally honest examination of the situation.

                But if that's true, then it opens the door to his statement of today also being just a convenient fiction, which, while worth examining, bears no relation at all to any sort of reason to cast a ballot for John McCain.

                On the other hand, if he's a man who means what he says, then it must have meant exactly what eugene said it meant: that he's unafraid of the discussion, and thinks you ought to be, too.

                Look, the FISA position doesn't make any real sense. But that's fine. I mean, it doesn't make any real sense to be throwing out figures for how many more families will be insured under his health care plan, either. But we all accept that that, too, is a convenient fiction that's a part of doing what it takes to get elected, and give yourself a shot at fulfilling whatever part of that fiction you can salvage.

                If you can't talk about that along the way, we're just never going to mature as a political force. We'll all be trapped forever hoping that newcomers understand our intricate system of winks and nods, and we remain compartmentalized, divided, generally ignorant, and therefore easily manipulated.

                We expect our elected leaders to make tough votes that are often fraught with peril. Our responsibility as educated and engaged citizens is the same. Sometimes we have to make votes that strain our limits over one thing or another. But we do it because not voting is not an option, so we find what is, all things considered, our best possible path and we take it.

                If this was all about logic, we'd do it with spreadsheets and there'd be no reason to ask people to vote. There'd be a mathematical answer and your opinion wouldn't be needed.

              •  You know an awful lot (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YetiMonk

                about how he thinks and feels.

                How do you do that?

            •  Even more irony (0+ / 0-)

              Passing this FISA legislation will likely stifle future dissent.

              "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

              by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:08:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  If there's really no substance behind (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YetiMonk

            what opponents, including that well known "Republican operative" Russ Feingold, are saying, then what are you so afraid of?

            "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

            by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:12:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Freedom of speech (6+ / 0-)

        What an antiquated concept!

        "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

        by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:57:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Enjoy your 1st Amendment rights under Pres McCain (8+ / 0-)

          Oh, wait a minute, there won't be any, except the right for rich people to contribute as much as they want to Republicans.
          Yet another pyrrhic victory for the left.
          Haven't you people learned anything about Nader and 2000?  Can't we finally win an election against the Republicans?  Or do we have to undermine the best candidate of our lifetime and end up with 4 more years of Bush policies?

          •  How many rights are you willing to give up (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chechecule, YetiMonk

            in order to win at all cost? Giving up more of our Constitutional rights to win would, indeed, be a pyrrhic victory.

            "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

            by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:07:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If and when Obama wins (8+ / 0-)

              we will realize that we have given up no rights, and gained back those that we lost during the last 8 years.
              If McCain wins, we will continue to lose rights, since he has promised to continue Bush's policies, and the Republicans will conclude that they cannot lose a national election regardless of the circumstances and are free to do whatever they want, which includes further rigging our electoral system to ensure a one party regime.
              What about this do you not understand?
              Do you think the Constitution and Bill Of Rights are more likely to be safeguarded by Obama or McCain?

              •  Your question (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                YetiMonk

                Do you think the Constitution and Bill Of Rights are more likely to be safeguarded by Obama or McCain?

                Despite what many on your side keep implying, almost all of us opposing FISA recognize that Obama is more likely to safeguard the Constitution and Bill of Rights and will vote for him.

                However, we know better than simply trust any one man to do what's right. As responsible citizens, we can't stop at merely voting for our representatives, we are obligated to hold them accountable. If we don't do that, we may as well just elect a king.

                Even Barack Obama has said that he will make mistakes. When it comes to a matter of this much importance, even Barack Obama needs to be held accountable.

                "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:20:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So hold him responsible (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Jezreel, Alohilani, fieldmarshal

                  after he is elected President.
                  Don't do anything, and I mean anything, that may reduce his chances of being elected.
                  What about this is too complicated to understand?  Are you too high and mighty to care about the effects of your conduct on the question of who will be our next President?

                  •  Sounds to me (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sagebrush Bob

                    like you'd like simple one party rule and just have the leaders announced. That would certainly help you reach your goal of nobody doing anything that might reduce the prospective leaders chances of being elected.

                    •  You sound like a Republican on that one (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Christin, smartguy11, Jezreel, Alohilani

                      they're the ones who want one party rule.
                      I just want the right candidate to win and his supporters to not screw it up.
                      And that candidate is Obama.

                      •  you do realize that what small clout we have (0+ / 0-)

                        evaporates after election day, right? But your stifling of dissent is very republican-esque. Dissent is not treason.

                        Obama is winning handily and if our support were that important to him then maybe he's just smart enough to take that into account. Apparently our support isn't that important any more and he is "glad to take (his) lumps".

                        With or without us, beating mccain should be a cakewalk for nearly anyone, especially Obama.

                        •  I don't think you need clout (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          smartguy11, Jezreel, Alohilani

                          I suspect Obama agrees with your position and would be eager for an opportunity to revisit FISA after he is elected.  But he won't get to do that if he doesn't first get elected.
                          And I don't think this will be a cakewalk.  The MSM will do everything in their power, which is considerable, to sink Obama and help McCain.  Have you already forgotten 2000 and 2004?  The last thing we need is dissension within the ranks to feed the media frenzy.

                          •  you are a very trusting soul (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Sagebrush Bob

                            and take the kindest possible view of all of Obama's actions. I'm more inclined to take him at his word and hold him to it.

                            trust and politics just do not mix.

                          •  Regardless, there is no doubt that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Jezreel

                            Obama will do more for us and the Constitution than McCain, not to mention every other problem facing America.
                            But forget it, the future of the world is not as important as you maintaining your ideological purity, so screw it, hand the election to McBush so we can have 4 more years of the same.
                            See you in Guantanamo.

                          •  I'm tired of people trotting out the boogeyman (0+ / 0-)

                            defense to stifle dissent.

                            mccain has almost no chance of winning. Obama could increase that lead into a record setting landslide if he kept his activist base happy and enthusiastic by doing what he said he would.

                            Enthusiasm was his biggest weapon and he seems to be willingly throwing it away as he panders to a non-existant and mythical "center" that is actually just a construct used to keep shifting debates to the right.

                      •  You're projecting (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        YetiMonk

                        "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

                        by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:10:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

          •  if you really think that mccain has a chance (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Catesby, Sagebrush Bob

            then you ought to be doubly worried about the LEGAL power that the FISA amendment will give him.

        •  Respectful and constructive feedback intended to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sagebrush Bob, ArtSchmart

          help a candidate and leader get back on a course a supporter beleive gives them and all of us better chances of winning should be respected and honored, not suppressed, and ridiculed, or buried with pie recipies.  

          We are in a complex dynamic system in which we all have the capacity to learn and improve.  Constructive dissent may actually improve a candidates long term election chances is listened to and incorporated into collective learning.

          The ability to learn and adapt faster than one's competitors is the only sustainable competitive advantage in the very long term.  Everything else changes.

          The ability to learn and adapt faster then McCain and the GOP could be the most powerful and  sustainable competitive advantage we have.  

          We need to not only tolerate, but cultivate and cherish a continuous churn of internal, supportive, dissent to optimize our ability to continuously test and improve our mental models, assumptions, data, logic, strategies, and culture.

          We can gain an incredible competitive advantage if we build and cultivate our collecitive ability to learn.

          The most successful leaders in these kinds of environments, stake their legitimacy on learning faster thaothers, being able to create and nurture learning communities, not on always being right, nor refusing to admit error, or change a position, in light of new facts or viewpoints.    

          Those that cannot admit error, or resist learning and adaptaptation do not last long in dynamic complex systems.  

          Who are we to suppress unpopular viewpoints based on our own incomplete mental models?  

          If one doesn't like to read certain viewpoints don't read them.  It's discouraging to see so many coming in to to someones else's diary to slam them down so hard, and in such disparaging ways.  Especially, off topic recipies, and ridicule.  

          These types of intolerant behaviors inhibit collective learning, are disrpectful to well intentioned  individuals with different and diverse viewpoints.  

          A better way to support Obama and help him win might be to imitate some of his more noble behaviors including respect for others he might disagree with.  

          I applaud his willingness to not only tolerate, but support posting on his website by folks who dissagree with some details.  

          Markos has impressed me in similar ways, and the consequent diversity of viewpoint, culture of respect for differences of opinion has made DKOS one of the best sites around.

          Those sites who bash down dissent become stale, and useless.  Leaders who surround themselves with sychophants predictably fail quickly.    

          Let's keep on trucking.  

          PS Thanks Eugene for waving the flag of protecting minority view expression.

          The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by HoundDog on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:17:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Or he could re-evaluate his moves. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YetiMonk, HoundDog, Jezreel

        Sort of like when he started shifting recently, only this time back towards where he started.

        "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

        by Skid on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 08:01:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  i think its because (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      soms

      some FISA voters wont vote for obama, while some will. people should state where they stand to not cause so much anger and confusion.

      •  What I'm getting tired of (0+ / 0-)

        is being told repeatedly that I should go vote for McCain if I won't shut up about FISA. Now try and tell me that sort of attitude doesn't hurt Obama?

        "They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

        by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:16:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks Eugene... (8+ / 0-)

      But it is all fine by me.

      The most amazing thing is how some Obama supporter's are becoming more and more like Bush's supporters.

      "If the Leader says it is fine, then we will support him/her without questioning his/her judgement".

      I am just saddened of how much damage the last eight years have done to the fabric of our society, that people are so desperate to have Bush out of office that they will choose to agree blindly with the leader.

      I will vote for Obama because I want Bush III out of office, but the damage is already done.

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