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  •  Based on your defenition FISA is liberal. (0+ / 0-)

    Arn't they claiming the goal is to protect the common good?

    The argument can be made that civilian gun ownership protects the common good as well.

    And how does any of this touch on you being told what to think and what you may safely say?

    Based on the political compass I am left/libertarian.  Economic Left/Right: -5.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.21.

    http://www.politicalcompass.org

    We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama, 2004 DNC

    by Tumult on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:14:12 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •   Silent Night, love thy brother (0+ / 0-)

      Dear Tumult . . .

      I took the Political Compass test so long ago.  Interesting and perhaps, for me it was more accurate than I allowed myself to know prior.  I am indeed an authentic Liberal and not an anarchist, or one who hold dear a need to be "Right."  I have no desire to protect myself from my brethren.  You may wish to consider the Christmas Truce, Silent Night.

      The Year was 1914 and the Great War was under way. Christmas season was upon the participants of war, and the scene was set for one of the greatest Christmas stories of all time. For two days, the fighting stopped, the guns fell silent, and men who had been enemies days before, came together in the spirit of brotherhood, peace, and goodwill. The soldiers came together to bury their dead, sing hymns, hold worship services, exchange gifts and play soccer. It was the spirit of Christ, the Prince of Peace that moved these soldiers to act in complete opposite of how soldiers should act. They looked beyond the propaganda, and saw in each other humanity and likeness.

      I share the common good does not mean I can kill my friend, family, or neighbor for I fear they may do me harm.  The common good does not accept a world in which my child could accidentally be shot by a gun in my possession.  The common good does not reinforce the possibility that someone could steal and murder my offspring.  The common good does not allow me to shoot at a driver who obstructs my path.

      United States:
      0.042802 per 1,000 people

      United Kingdom:
      0.0140633 per 1,000 people

      Switzerland:
      0.00921351 per 1,000 people

      This means United States Murder rate is 66.7% or 2/3  higher than England's
      And a whopping 93.6% higher than Switzerland's

      Murder statistics overall
      www.nationmaster.comgraph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

      Murders committed by firearms
      http://www.nationmaster.com/...

      United States  #4
      England [United Kingdom] #40
      Switzerland #23

      By the way, numbers 1, 2 and 3 are places were guns are ubiquitous
      South Africa, Columbia and Thailand. In Columbia and Thailand there are also active civil wars going on.

      United States Crime Statistics extract
      http://www.nationmaster.com/...
      England Crime Statistics extract
      http://www.nationmaster.com/...

      The rate per thousand of population murder by firearms comparison between the United States and England is 96.4 %. In other words, we have a rate that is 28 times higher than their rate per thousand of population.  

      You may recall the government no longer keeps accurate statistics for gun injury.  Nonetheless . .

      "In civilian firearm injuries and deaths, we're doing worse than any other country," says Dr. Robert Tanz, with the Violent Injury Prevention Center at Children's Memorial Hospital in Chicago. "We're not having a civil war here, but 35,000 to 40,000 people a year die from gunshot wounds." Dr. Tanz would like to see a firearm injury surveillance system in Illinois, but so far those efforts have failed. "The efforts of CDC are important because they apply the science of epidemiology and the principles of public health to injuries from firearms. It's intellectually disturbing to me that people don't want to understand this issue at a basic level," he says.

      It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Betsy L. Angert
      BeThink

      by Bcgntn on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:06:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You ruined your own argument. (0+ / 0-)

        I seem to recall that a higher percentage of the population in Switzerland owns guns than in the US.

        Some of our clients settling in Switzerland ask us about their rights with respect to firearms. Can you import weapons to Switzerland? In what circumstances can they be transported? Where can they be fired? Are there limitations with respect to the type of weapon? We’ll try to answer these questions in this section.
        We’d like to stress that in our mind, there is absolutely no credible reason for an average citizen to want to transport a loaded weapon, given the fact that violent crime is practically non-existent in Switzerland. Firearm ownership is widespread in Switzerland, however, and precision shooting is a highly regarded pastime. Young people can practice shooting military weapons by the age of 16, and keep their rifles at home. More information

        It is worth noting that the high number of firearms per capita does not lead to a high rate of violent crime – on the contrary.

        Regadless what you said here is overboard, and dogmatic:

        I share the common good does not mean I can kill my friend, family, or neighbor for I fear they may do me harm.  The common good does not accept a world in which my child could accidentally be shot by a gun in my possession.  The common good does not reinforce the possibility that someone could steal and murder my offspring.  The common good does not allow me to shoot at a driver who obstructs my path.

        Murder, Abduction and Theft are all possible without a gun.  In some ways they are easier in a society without guns.  And I do not see that allowing gun possession, means you would have to possess a gun, since you seem to think you are a danger to others.  If you compare gun deaths in rural America (where a higher percentage of the population owns guns), with that of urban America,  and only considered gun ownership per person/murder, you would reach the opposite conclusion (that more people with guns leads to less murder).

        We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. -Barack Obama, 2004 DNC

        by Tumult on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 01:18:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "dogmatic"? the Swiss, less and still (0+ / 0-)

          Dear Tumult . . .

          Please peruse.

          Guns at Home in Switzerland Means Gun Violence Is There, Too

          Every once in a while, a gun guy will email us about Switzerland. Why do they do this, you ask? Because, supposedly, in Switzerland, every male able to commit to military service is required to keep a machine gun and ammunition in his home. Now, while it seems pretty clear that guns represent a threat, a lot of the gun guys who email us don't think so. They say Switzerland's relative peace and quiet isn't in spite of the fact that there are guns everywhere-- they claim it's because of it. They try to tell us that because every male in Switzerland is armed without a license (a fact that, incidentally, will change in 2008 when Switzerland comes into line with the Schengen treaty), gun violence is nonexistent in Switzerland.

          Like most of what the gun guys say, that's just not true.

          The murder last week of one of Switzerland's most famous skiers has forced the Swiss to look long and hard at a crime that is worryingly common in their society.

          Corinne Rey-Bellet was shot by her husband Gerold Stadler just days after the couple had agreed to separate.

          Stadler also shot and killed Rey-Bellet's brother Alain, and seriously wounded her mother, before finally killing himself.

          The Swiss media tend to call cases like this "family dramas", in which a man kills his wife, often his own children, and himself.

          Family slaughter might be a more accurate term - there have been 14 such cases in Switzerland in the last 11 months.

          Now certainly 14 cases of family slaughter is nothing compared to what we have in America-- we go through that, unfortunately, in a matter of hours within a day. And the Swiss and American cultures are (almost completely) a world apart. But the fact is, gun guys, that when you have guns around, you're going to have gun violence. It's telling that just as most of the Swiss keep their weapons in their homes (concealed carry is legal but heavily regulated), that's where the gun violence happens.

          A recent study indicated that 58% of all murders in Switzerland were within the family. In the Netherlands, also a peaceful, prosperous Western European country, the figure is 29%.

          Mr Boess blames the Swiss army's policy of requiring Swiss men, who all have to do military service, to keep their guns and ammunition at home in case of an emergency call-up.

          What that means is that nearly all Swiss men have a sturmgewehr - a sub-machine gun - stored somewhere in their homes.

          Those who make it to officer level have an automatic pistol too, and when men leave the army, they are allowed to keep their guns. No licence is required.

          "If things go wrong, he can go upstairs, get the gun, and shoot," says Mr Boess.

          In most of Switzerland's "family dramas", an army gun is used. Stadler shot his famous wife with his officer's pistol.

          "It's very common to hear women tell how their husbands remind them they have a gun in moments of tension," says Brigitte Schnegg, professor of gender politics at Berne University.

          "They'll say: 'If you don't do what I want, don't forget I've got my gun upstairs.'"

          It is only the giving that makes us what [who] we are. - Ian Anderson. Betsy L. Angert
          BeThink

          by Bcgntn on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:04:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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