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View Diary: Bush can hold US civilians indefinitely, court rules. UPDATED x2 (278 comments)

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  •  Flowers of Evil (0+ / 0-)

    You just gave a good demonstration of how your faith is dominating your logic. Faith in Obama and technology, despite the logic that the evidence of your senses deliver to you.

    Just because there is technology for us to encrypt our communications doesn't mean that we're protected. For one, PGP has been available free and easy for over a decade (and free though not so easy for years before that) - but practically no one uses it (as a percentage of either Internet users or Internet traffic). For another, the NSA already has quantum decryption computers that can brute force crack PGP or any other properly implemented public key scrambling (including HTTPS/SSL, S/MIME, TLS, etc), to say nothing of any flawed implementation (which is the norm) which is easy pickings at the Puzzle Palace.

    But the main reason is that the government trumps technology. Try keeping your private key private when they ask you for it on your umpteenth week in Guantanamo, where they sent you for "using PGP without a warrant", or just kidnapped you. That's probably not Obama's style, but those dozens of $billions a year in CIA and NSA budgets are buying a lot of datamining of your data footprint. When the government is run by the spooks, which Obama's FISA vote (along with the Democratic majority and the Republicans) demonstrates is what's underway, PGP isn't "pretty good" enough.

    But really your political "expertise" is blown apart by claiming that Democrats opposing Obama's FISA flipflop is electing McCain. That's not just an excluded middle fallacy that discredits your claims to superior logical skills. That's politically wrong, as Obama retains a 9 point lead, and is headed to victory. While even people disappointed into lower enthusiasm, reduced support and pressure on Obama to change are still supporting him, clearly amply to get him victory.

    But even that kind of wrongness is more like a fast busy signal than the total disconnect of your idea that we should "keep our powder dry" (as Democrats have on every important Bush tyranny, including FISA), waiting until after Obama doesn't need our votes at all for 4 years (and secure to coast in a huge Democratic Congressional majority). Obama's FISA reversal itself demonstrates that when he needed our primary votes, he was "unequivocally opposed" to FISA telco amnesty. But once we'd given up that leverage by voting him into the nomination, he immediately reversed himself, because the accountability moment was past. He's broadcast a clear demonstration that the November election will be the same. Only pure faith, the deluded kind that ignores evidence, can tell you any different.

    Stick to line noise. You're not even really good with the puns, even if you really did want to call me either a "Commie" or gay with your "pink noise" comment. Your logic is demonstrably subverted by your need to believe that Obama didn't betray you. When all the actual facts and logic show how he did, and how you're setting yourself up for it again in November by adopting the Republican trademark "my candidate, right or wrong, so long as we get power, they'll use it for 'good', after they trick the other side but not me".

    If you've got some actual political logic, post it already. If all you've got is this "compost" that's been the exclusive content of your posts - covering fallacies from the excluded middle to the appeal to authority and points between, just hang it up already. That beeping isn't liberty on call waiting - it's a line tap that's so cheap because they've got you working for them against yourself anyway.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 08:17:01 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  this is almost getting fun... (0+ / 0-)

      I wasn't calling you gay.  I'm gay and I don't ask straight guys out, much less that way.  The pun was on "pink = pinkos (leftish-leaning liberals)" and "pink noise = constrained bandwidth compared to white noise."

      Re. NSA using quantum cryptanalysis machines to break PGP keys: what's your source for that?

      Re. giving up keys under torture, if they start disappearing & torturing American citizens in any significant numbers, that'll raise a shitstorm of large proportion.  Somehow I doubt they are that stupid.

      Re. giving up keys under lesser degrees of duress, for example at Customs, we're working on a protocol for one-time use GPG keys and a few other things to deal with that issue.  

      Re. Obama & FISA:  Surely you've heard "in the primary, run toward the base; in the general, run toward the center"?  He's following that pattern.  When in office I expect him to start out with a few items to strongly please the base, and then a few to please the center, and then we'll see what direction he takes from there.  

      No need for faith when one can extrapolate from existing patterns.  

      Re. psychoanalysis:  No "feeling of betrayal" if there's no "romance."  In my world this is pure pragmatics, and the core issue is the climate crisis.  If we don't deal with that issue starting yesterday, we're done for, and all the rest of this won't even matter ten years from now.  

      Re. excluded middle:  There are two viable choices, an R and a D.  Find me a viable third party to put in the middle, and I'll see about excluding it:-)

      Political party dynamics (inter and intra) tend to be scale-independent networks.  Changing the faces does not change the underlying dynamics.  However, systemic change is coming, and the climate crisis will assure that, one way or the other.  Unfortunately I think it's going to be "the other."  

      Your turn...

      •  No Fun (0+ / 0-)

        No, this is no fun for me.

        Because the bottom line is that there is another choice than just "R" or "D". It's "better D". As everyone keeps saying. As I keep saying in this thread. Your ignoring that pressuring Obama on FISA isn't costing him the election. If this were Kerry with a 3-point lead against an incumbent Bush, or Gore v Bush, that argument might have merit. But it doesn't. As amply demonstrated in the polls. And as Obama obviously calculated when he didn't just "run towards the base / center", but actually reversed an "unequivocal" opposition into both equivocation and binding support. Even though that FISA vote isn't scoring him any more votes, and perhaps even losing some (that he can afford).

        So it doesn't matter that the NSA can crack a PGP that people don't use. It doesn't matter that the government's power trumps technology. Before all those actually disputable issues even matter, there's Obama trending worse for no good reason. And there's people like me pointing that out, for the good reason of making him worth the vote we're casting. To people like you who don't mind him being worse, and ignore those simple reasons why you should, and why we're right to try to stop it without the costs you're inventing.

        There isn't another way to say it. Saying it again is merely tiresome. And better spent saying it to Obama, who might actually change. Which, it seems, is the only way to change your mind, anyway, just like his changing FISA position changed you.

        So you have fun with your broken Obama and your (supposedly) unbroken PGP. While it lasts. I'm busy fixing both.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:59:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  nor is living in a decidership much fun either... (0+ / 0-)

          BTW, I knew about FISA and FISC a couple of decades ago also, and in those days we thought it was bad enough that a court could operate in secret.  The resignation of a FISA judge last year, in protest against Bushism, seems to have  clarified the record on that somewhat.

          Now in your previous post you said, unequivocally, that No Such Agency has quantum cryptanalysis and can brute-force PGP keys now.  That's the kind of claim that deserves further support, so I'm still asking: what's your source for that?  

          Re. fixing PGP/GPG:  Elliptic curve cryptography by any chance?  If so, I know someone else working on that one.  Between now and then we're going to release an unlimited keylength patch for GPG (it's absurdly simple, but a standardized version of that would be helpful).  That should at least make the inbox at Meade take a little longer to empty.  

          I wonder if we ever met at one of the early Cypherpunk meetings...?  Hmm... I won't speculate further in this medium...

          Ultimately, a better FISA is like a hybrid powertrain SUV: it's a band aid on a major injury.  What's really needed is a comprehensive privacy amendment to the Constitution, with appropriate supporting legislation.   Someone here by the name of Thinking LIberally has proposed the idea of doing a major push on civil liberties across the board, and that's a damn good idea.  Full frontal attack, and let the righties go on the defensive for once.  Have people such as Kucinich and Dodd on the case and the netroots pushing hard.  

          Ultimately we're both on the same side of this one; where I get off the boat is where people start talking as if Obama is the enemy or has betrayed them or some such; or they're going to stop making contributions or stay home on election day.  That sort of thing just discourages people from voting.  

          Emotional states are contagious; we have to be exceptionally careful to not end up promoting a generalized state of depression or anger that resolves itself by going into apathy mode.  Today's 9-point lead has the potential to become tomorrow's cliffhanger with smaller coat-tails.  We cannot throw that 9-point lead away.  

          The future will be measured in degrees Celsius of mean temperature rise, and in the ph of the oceans.  At this point the situation has gone so far that a multi-gigadeath dieoff is a foregone conclusion.  Whether it proceeds to a total collapse of economic and social systems, and a near-extinction event for humans, is what is ultimately at stake in this election.

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