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View Diary: "They have to follow orders" (UPDATEDx2) (101 comments)

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  •  Your opinion about why (0+ / 0-)

    is pretty rediculous. Perhaps your interpretation is tainted by your own chain of command being too soft, even after several violations as you claimed. It made you not take it seriously, shame on them.

    But no doubt when some knucklehead does something stupid, like get a DUI, a REAL article 15 usually puts him in line and makes others think twice before getting behind a wheel drunk.

    •  lmao... ok... (0+ / 0-)

      First of all... I was in ROTC... I saw firsthand how, even at that level, the officer corp was all about politics.

      Second of all... who is soft and who isn't really doesn't change the actual Articles, now does it?

      Third... I looked into Army when I enlisted.  The Army recruiter gave me a little computer test.  The first question on it?  If Tommy had 2 apples and Susie had 3 apples and if you put them together, how many apples do they have total.  It was a 100 question test.  I scored a 98 out of 100.  The recruiter asked me what I wanted to be and I told him an MP (Military Police).  The recruiter said, "oh no... with THAT score, I want you in MI (Military Intelligence).  I said, "no, I want to be a cop".  He replied, "we make people who score in the 30's and 40's MP's.

      I realize you may not be able to comprehend more than "bad guy... shoot".  But I can.

      The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

      by MotleyPatriot on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:22:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A lovely story (0+ / 0-)

        But complete bullshit. It matters not to the recruiter which MOS you choose. NONE. You know how I know? I just came off of recruiter duty.

        It was a 100 question test.  I scored a 98 out of 100.

        While you're busy trying to be condescending you may want to get your facts straight. It's NOT a 100 question test and that's not how the percentages are calculated. If you're referring to the AFQT (you're sitting there saying, what's THAT? Let me go to google so I can sound smart).... the highest possible score is 99.

        I was offered about 15 different MOS's including Intelligence Analyst, and I still insisted on Infantry.

        Absolutely nothing you have posted thus far, including your diary follows any level of logic or reason.

        •  then TRY to understand this... (0+ / 0-)

          When I went through EOD, a Navy run tech school, it was the 3rd hardest tech school in the Navy.

          In 1991, being a soft Air Force guy... I spent 3 weeks with the 18th Brigade 325 C Company outside of Dohuk babysitting them because they didn't trust their ARMY engineers in the minefields.  For that time, being only a mere AF guy, I have an ARMY Achievement medal on my fruit salad.

          And the Army Major who was in charge?  He sent me and my boss out to the same minefield 3 days in a row because the dumbfuck couldn't get his shit straight and have us do ONE trip... and when me and my boss told him we weren't going back a fourth time, I think he had an anuerism.

          I've provided every bit of information needed in my diary with backing from the UCMJ to the actual legal cases supporting it.

          That YOU can't understand it isn't MY fault... you're Army and I really don't EXPECT you to.

          The concept is simple... you don't have to follow an unlawful order BY LAW, BY LEGAL PRECEDENT IN EVERY CASE THAT HAS EVER GONE TO A COURT OF LAW.

          That people STILL GET FUCKED OVER IS A FAILURE OF THE OFFICER CORP WHO REFUSES TO FUCK THEMSELVES OVER.

          The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

          by MotleyPatriot on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:00:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you for (0+ / 0-)

            A long winded big-fish story about how the Air Force is superior to the Army. zzzzz...

            The concept is simple... you don't have to follow an unlawful order BY LAW, BY LEGAL PRECEDENT IN EVERY CASE THAT HAS EVER GONE TO A COURT OF LAW.

            And yet in every example you provided the individual was punished.

            •  and you still can't understand the concept of why (0+ / 0-)

              when it's quite simple:

              SOMEONE has to be get fucked and there are TWO choices; the grunt or the officer who gave the order.

              Since FEW officers EVER get fucked, guess who that leaves?

              The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

              by MotleyPatriot on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:19:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's funny. (0+ / 0-)

                Because the context and narative of your examples tell a different story.

                Some examples:

                "In addition, the argument that "military men and women will be prosecuted if they don't follow an order" holds little weight, as well.  In U.S. vs Bracey, the defendant was charged with a slew of violations:"

                "I count 9 violations that the defendant was charged with, and, for all of that, he was sentenced to only 6 months in confinement;"

                "This was a mutiny by 19 members of a unit in Iraq who stood up and said "NO" to an order during a time of war.  Were these members executed as the Article clearly states they could have been?  No.  The members received letters in their files called "non-judicial punishment" and all of them were returned to duty."

                It's obvious you're providing these as examples of how you CAN disobey orders, accentuating their "light" sentences. So did they get away with murder (metephorically) as you elude to in your diary, or did they get "FUCKED" as you're now changing it to?

        •  Oh... and btw... (0+ / 0-)

          I enlisted in 1986... not 2008... you idiot...

          The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

          by MotleyPatriot on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:01:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh... and btw... (0+ / 0-)

            The ASVAB has been in place since the 70s you idiot.

            lol

            •  yeah... I took the ASVAB... (0+ / 0-)

              I never said it was the ASVAB the Army recruiter gave me... did I?

              Stop now... really...

              The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

              by MotleyPatriot on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:15:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  LOL! (0+ / 0-)

                Please keep posting because I'm having fun with you.

                YOU:

                I scored a 98 out of 100.  The recruiter asked me what I wanted to be and I told him an MP (Military Police).  The recruiter said, "oh no... with THAT score, I want you in MI (Military Intelligence).

                So the recruiter did NOT give you the ASVAB (the very test that qualifies you for a specific MOS), and yet, you're already being offered them?

                Ooops. Sorry about that.

                •  That's because I had the option to (0+ / 0-)

                  take the ASVAB in high school... which I did...

                  And when I was in AFROTC I took the AFOQT (which as a freshman in college I scored a 76 cumulative which qualified me to be a jet jockey)...

                  And when I dropped out of college to enlist, the Army recruiter had their own little computer test... which I already detailed.  And when I saw just how stupid some people in the Army were, I went Air Force.

                  I wound up in EOD... who taught us from day 1 that it was our lives on the line and if we didn't like a call... QUESTION IT...

                  Unlike you, infantry in the Army... ie... grunt... bullet catcher... who had every bit of questioning beat out of you.

                  The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

                  by MotleyPatriot on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:28:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow, just wow (0+ / 0-)

                    They gave you a computer test in 1986?

                    And there's no test called an AFOQT.

                    YOU

                    I wound up in EOD... who taught us from day 1 that it was our lives on the line and if we didn't like a call... QUESTION IT...

                    YOU

                    The two other EOD technicians who brought out the concern to the SMSgt, a MSgt (E-7) and TSgt (E-6), both went out on the operation despite knowing it was unsafe.

                    LOL!

                    And when I saw just how stupid some people in the Army were, I went Air Force.

                    And yet, here I am running circles around you.

                    •  One correction (0+ / 0-)

                      I missed that you took the AFOQT in ROTC. So I'll give you that one as plausible.

                    •  (just smiles) (0+ / 0-)

                      There is no test called an AFOQT?

                      It's called the Air Force Officers Qualification Test.

                      You're hardly running circles around me... you're simply... running around in circles.

                      That is the difference between an EOD tech, who at the time, had a quarter of a million dollars spent on my training... and an Army Infantry (ie, bullet catcher)... we were taught to question bad orders because they didn't want to lose us to stupidity... while they didn't WANT you to question orders, because if you did, you wouldn't have done what you did and your body was replaceable.

                      The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

                      by MotleyPatriot on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:44:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You still haven't explained (0+ / 0-)

                        Your recruiter giving you a computer test in 1986.

                        Whatever they supposedly taught you in your supposed school doesn't make you any less shitty of a barracks lawyer than the next guy.

                        Also, it's interesting that you didn't like the Army because "they're stupid" (welcome to 6th grade), and yet according to you you were in the Army recruiting office only recently.

                        So not only are you flip-flopping on the entire point of your diary (clearly stated), you're also full of shit.

                        •  ummm... follow along... I'll talk slow... (0+ / 0-)

                          I enlisted 22 years ago.

                          I talked to the Army and Air Force (Army first).

                          I have no clue if it was an office thing, or standard at the time, all I know is that the Army recruiter had a test on a computer and I took it.

                          Yes, after learning that I scored a 98 out of 100, and they took people who scored 30's and 40's on that test... I knew they took ROCKS.. and walked over to the AF recruiter.

                          And... if you think I'm full of shit... that's your right.  

                          But, my dd 214 speaks volumes... as does my fruit salad... as does the fact I can read and comprehend what a statute or article states in addition to all of the legal cases that back them.

                          Yes, the two other EOD techs DID go out on that op KNOWING it was bad, because they didn't want the SMSgt to fuck over their careers.  But, they still knew it was a bad op.  How political and bad is it?  The E-8 who caused the problem got promoted to E-9 and moved to HQ EOD USAFE.  The "investigation" cited the E-6 who was one of the three who brought out the problem as being at fault (he was screwed).  And the investigators never, EVER, contacted me at any time.

                          The ONLY thing that saved my ass from being courtmartialed when the E-8 falsified documents to try and back his claims is that I had worked for the squadron commander as the units security manager, which meant as a secondary duty, I worked DIRECTLY for the CO... and for the two years I did so... my program was rated as Best on Base by the Base Security Manager.

                          The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

                          by MotleyPatriot on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:05:01 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah... ok (0+ / 0-)

                            Up until (reletively recently) even the ASVAB was given on paper, and it's ONLY ever been administered at the MEPS.

                            Until recently the EST (practice ASVAB) was also given on paper in the office.

                            Until VERY recently there was no way for an Army recruiter to reserve an MOS from the office.

                            It can NOT be "an office thing", and even if it was, what the hell was he using... DOS? There wasn't exactly a computer at every desk in 1986.

                            Everything about your story is impossible.

                            But, my dd 214 speaks volumes... as does my fruit salad... as does the fact I can read and comprehend what a statute or article states in addition to all of the legal cases that back them.

                            Ummm.. no. You've been ass backwards on pretty much everything.

                            Yes, the two other EOD techs DID go out on that op KNOWING it was bad

                            But...but...you wound up in EOD... who taught you from day 1 that it was your lives on the line and if you didn't like a call... QUESTION IT...

                          •  lol... ummm... ok... (0+ / 0-)

                            so... in 1986... I WASN'T programming computers in basic language and Cobol, Fortran, and Assembler weren't ALREADY being taught (which I know as my brother has a degree in Computer Science) and there simply weren't computers out there...

                            and... I DID take the ASVAB, on paper...

                            and... I DID take the AFOQT, on paper... (3 hrs of hell)

                            and... it's not like, at 18, I checked to see WHAT computer he had...

                            No... I've NOT been ass backwards...

                            And yes, we WERE taught to question...

                            The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

                            by MotleyPatriot on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:33:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I said.. (0+ / 0-)

                            there simply wasn't exactly computers on every desk. That you can regurgitate programming languages has no more relevance than you pounding your chest about your DD214.

                            Computer tests (of any kind) were NOT given in the office 1986. In fact, it wasn't until much later that recruiting offices even HAD computers in them. It wasn't until very recently that they could even offer you an MOS from the office.

                            But whatever. You're going to stick to your story.

                          •  yeah... I have a tendency to do that (0+ / 0-)

                            when events occurred as related.

                            That you don't believe it is your right.  Don't.

                            There is much I've done in my life you wouldn't believe.

                            The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

                            by MotleyPatriot on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:44:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm going to comment here. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            luckylizard

                            I'm seeing an argument about recruiting procedures of 20 years ago based on recruiting experience from today.

                            I would hope that overtime, that recruiters progressed with the times and technology.  I'm sure the recruiting process was different in 86 then it was in 80 when I went in as it is today.  I was actually surprised that the Army National Guard Recruiter, when discussing with my husband over the telephone, discussed where to place him on the phone, even before their first meeting a few years back.  

                            Did the military have pc's in the 80's.  Actually yes they did.  The shop that I was in got a Zenith 100 computer in 85 or 86 (I was still stationed at Tinker AFB at the time and we used it to maintain training records).  It was the first pc introduced to our squadron.  Since we had it, couldn't it have been feasible that Army recruiters were using these also and testing applications that may work?  

                            My experience in the recruiting process and military is different then MPs experience as I'm sure is different then USAP's experience.  

                          •  No (0+ / 0-)

                            It's not feasible.

                            From a logical standpoint the US Army has over 6000 recruiting personnel. Now we all have laptops, each one of us. Being that having (a) computer was a new thing to your squadron, think about it.

                            More important, I worked with and many career recruiters who had been in recruiting for YEARS. Even I joined the service on a "paper packet"

                            Sorry, I know you don't want to believe your husband just makes shit up as he goes along. So the back and forth isn't going to go anywhere. You're personally invested in the person and I'm far too intimately aware of USAREC to buy his ridiculous BS. So neither of us is going to convince the other.

                          •  So you were personally aware of recruiting (0+ / 0-)

                            procedures in 1986?  You actually went through the process?

                            Here's a question, do recruiters have computers now?

                          •  Oh and he didn't say (0+ / 0-)

                            He took the ASVAB or AFOQC (standardized testings on the computer, just another test that the recruiter gave him).  

                            As far as what we did within our squadron...we developed our own tests on the computers (though they were for training purposes).  

                          •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

                            We have computers now. The Sergeants Major and other high ranking career recruiters who HAVE been recruiting since the 80s have told us repeated how lucky we are not to have to build "paper contracts".

                            Also, the addition of FSR2S makes this the VERY FIRST TIME we have been able to reserve MOS's from the recruiting office.

                            Since the 70s the enterence exam is called the "ASVAB." It's not a 100 point test graded on a simple right-or-wrong percentage. And the highest you can score is 99. And your husband would NOT be offered anything short of having actual ASVAB Scores.

                            So he took the ASVAB in high school he says. I see. So let me get this straight. He was already ASVAB qualified but the recruiter decided to give him some meaningless test to offer him a job from the office.

                            Your husband's pants are on fire. Yes, that's right. The person you've known for years has an integrity problem. I said it.

                          •  Not hardly (0+ / 0-)

                            In eight years I was in and worked 4 different communications center, I never worked on the same piece of equipment twice.  Even the Army's communication computer system was different then what we worked with.

                            Given the number of military communications center around the world, it's not unfeasible for this to occur.  In a span of two years, USAF payroll went from punch card data to large disks.  I've been involved where we've tested new equipment and procedures out, only to suggest they be not implemented.  So your argument of it being not feasible is not actually correct.  

                            You seem to keep forgetting that he went from high school to college on the ROTC program.  What's your process now for high school rotc students? I know in 79 the various recruiters spent alot of time and weekends at my high school.  Since I wasn't interested in the military then, I didn't see actually what they did.

                            That's okay, neither of you are going to agree, you're so bent on discrediting him, that regardless of what proof he or I could provide without exposing his identify (which of course is against the FAQs of the board), you'll try to write off as bs.  No problem.  I'm sure he'd do the same to you if he had the opportunity.

                          •  on the contrary (0+ / 0-)

                            you're so bent on discrediting him

                            No, it's most definitely not malicious intent. Based on my experience in the recruiter world, logic, and what I've learned from long-time career recruiters I legitimately believe your husband is full of shit. It's not a silly online rivalry type of thing.

                            As far as JROTC students you don't process them any differently. They often will have already taken the SASVAB (Senior ASVAB) so they don't require that qualification. You can just phys them and swear them in.

                          •  So... (0+ / 0-)

                            As far as JROTC students you don't process them any differently. They often will have already taken the SASVAB (Senior ASVAB) so they don't require that qualification. You can just phys them and swear them in.

                            You've just shown where his test scores would have been on file.  One thing you weren't aware of that MP had plans to go into the military right out of high school, his father convinced him other wise.

                            And it's pretty cool that the recruiters you know who were recruiting back in 86 haven't opted for retirement yet.  Tell me, how many years do you have to have in service before being able to apply for recruiter duty for the Army?  

                          •  Have a nice day n/t. (0+ / 0-)
                          •  You have a nice day, too (0+ / 0-)

                            I had to go do a walk through on the new Condo.

                            You've just shown where his test scores would have been on file.

                            Actually, I didn't but if you found it that's great. His scores should be on his military record if he enlisted at some point. For prior service guys we pull what's called a "REDD Response" Out of curiosity, what is his RE Code?

                            And it's pretty cool that the recruiters you know who were recruiting back in 86 haven't opted for retirement yet.  Tell me, how many years do you have to have in service before being able to apply for recruiter duty for the Army?

                            Not many, but I've met a few. Just like the mainstream Army USAREC has leadership at every level, from the Company First Sergeant on up through Sergeants Major at the Battalion, Brigade, and higher levels. It's NOT uncommon for E9s to stay in past minimum retirement age.

                            Now I am able to read the tone in implications of this line of questioning. Sorry I ruined it for you, but I'm not your husband. I don't just say shit that's convenient.

                            To answer your question about how long you have to be in, it's not a matter of time. It's a matter of rank. E4 and above. Most recruiters are DA selected, meaning they came down on orders (like myself). It wasn't a choice. Some decide to "convert" to 79R as a perminent MOS. Most don't.

                          •  Just something to think about (0+ / 0-)

                            No tone whatsoever.  See here's the thing.

                            Just because you haven't seen it and the people you know haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  The USAF use to select a few number of shops or units when implement and testing new procedures before implementing them Air Force wide.  I would think the Army would too before investing in a lot of money in doing a mass upgrade, especially since each individual shop/unit, etc had a budget.

                            One of the squadrons that I was in was a combat communications group, we were always the commands guinea pigs. Thats why we ended up having the Zenith 100 in the training shop, my next duty station didn't even have one in the squadron.  We were one of three units that actually worked weather vans.  The argument about what occurred 20 years ago at one recruiting station is like me having an argument with USAF fixed comm center personnel who would tell you that it was the AWS and not Comm that maintained weather communications.  

                            So you really can't disprove what he experienced based on your experience, and all he can tell you is his experience which he can experience.  

                            That would also be like me arguing with Testevet that what he experienced never actually happened because I never heard about it, even though I was in around the time he was.  

                          •  And yes, he was in the Air Force (0+ / 0-)

                            If that's your doubt...but then again, I can question whether or not you actually went through recruiter duty too, couldn't I :)

                          •  I never stated I enlisted on a computer packet (0+ / 0-)

                            I stated that the Army recruiter gave me a computer test during the recruiting interview.

                            As you note in the update, in 1986, the Army WAS using a standardized computer test called the Basic Attributes Test.

                            As you note in the update, in 1986, the Army WAS allowing recruitment into SPECIFIC MOS's.

                            But, it's all ridiculus bullshit...

                            The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

                            by MotleyPatriot on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:37:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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