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View Diary: "They have to follow orders" (UPDATEDx2) (101 comments)

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  •  At the risk of being accused of (0+ / 0-)

    stalking or defending my husband...

    Your wife, on the otherhand, actually provided real examples.

    MP, did provide an actual example in his diary.  

    I was the only person in the unit who refused to take part in the operation.  The two other EOD technicians who brought out the concern to the SMSgt, a MSgt (E-7) and TSgt (E-6), both went out on the operation despite knowing it was unsafe.  The fear was justified; four EOD technicians had to be taken to the emergency room when the operation did, in fact, go bad, just as the SMSgt had been told.  I learned after I had a permanent change of station from Incirlik, that indeed, the SMSgt had tried to send me to courtmartial, but, that the commanding officer would have none of it.  

    •  Being in the military (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mpwife, USArmyParatrooper

      is unsafe by definition.  Stupid orders don't make them unlawful.  Disobeying stupid orders will get you punished.  In Abu Ghraib the orders were clearly unlawful and should have been refused.  All I see is an anti-military bias by a barracks lawyer.

      Don't confuse this confusion with disorganization, because we're not that organized yet. -5.13/-3.38

      by Grannus on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 04:32:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kind of a catch-22 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        While I was in, I could have been punished for breaking my leg - justification, I damaged government property.  

        The unsafe conditions MP was talking about was not being ordered to take a walk into the minefield but a fireworks display.  When I was an NCO and had people underneath of me, I was responsible for their safety and was held accountable would my actions have caused one of my troops to get hurt.

        And no, failure to follow stupid orders can save you from punishment, if those stupid orders were in direct violation of the established rules, regulations and procedures.

      •  In response... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        As I note in the diary above, the Reserve unit who had 19 members refuse movement did so based on it being unsafe due to equipment, security, etc.  As noted in the diary, these individuals were not courtmartialed for their refusal to do the movement for unsafe reasons.

        Also, in the specific incident in Turkey, the operation was the base 4th of July fireworks display which we knew wouldn't work right because the firing tubes for the fireworks were the wrong diameter and the fireworks ball had no gas seal.  For safety sake, the operation should have been shut down, but, in a politically motivated decision, the SMSgt forced the operation to continue to its obvious conclusion; personnel injury.

        The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

        by MotleyPatriot on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:33:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  He provided (0+ / 0-)

      ONE personal experience, that (MILDLY) makes his case. I say mildly because the Commander's decision not to persue it could be for a variety of reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean he had no legal basis for punishment.

      Also, the point of his diary is to show that 'unlawful' orders are not required to be followed.

      And this is his grand finale, his closing summary was this gem: "In the case of disobeying an order, as I've shown, the most a person could reasonably expect is 6 month confinement and discharge from the military."

      Yes, the most you can reasonably expect is 6 months in prison and a bad conduct discharge. Clearly unlawful orders are not required to be followed.

      •  The Commander refused to pursue it (0+ / 0-)

        because the "charges" and "paperwork" were brought to him after I had already PCS'd to my station and during my time working for the commander as the Squadron Security Manager, my work directly contradicted whatever "paperwork" happened to "appear" after my leaving.

        The "rule of law"; it applies to you and me, but not the rich, the Republican or the celebrity. Welcome to America!

        by MotleyPatriot on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 12:39:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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