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View Diary: GM's posts record loss (250 comments)

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  •  Surely you must know (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RJP9999

    Some, including myself, become immediately suspicious when someone so rabidly defends a company that did so much damage to this state instead of coming out in favor of better technology.

    It's kind of like defending the Oil Companies to me.

    You can do what you want.  I'm just saying to me it sounds like misduided resentment.

    •  This is so aggrevating (6+ / 0-)

      First, GM, Ford, and Chrysler have made a ton of mistakes.  Their management is made up of blue blooded elitists who for too long thought they knew what worked, didn't do their market research, and produced crappy vehicles.  The problem is that was a decade ago- Ford and GM (not so much Chrysler) are producing quality cars at affordable prices that get good gas mileage.  But market perception is driving sales now.

      Second, CAFE for all in tense and purposes, is a farce.  So many people think CAFE determines fuel efficiency.  But CAFE is only a fleet wide ratio taken across the sales of an entire company.  Fuel efficiency will go up this year because more fuel efficient cars are being bought while trucks stand idle.

      Third, Toyota and Honda are just as bad as GM and Ford in terms of producing guzzlers.  Toyota's Tundra is less efficient than GM's trucks, and Toyota also made a bet that trucks would be #1...their new U.S plant was designed to manufacture Tundras not Priusses.

      Fourth, GM's problems are from pensions and health care not as much from efficiency.  Toyota has yet to pay for a U.S. retiree.  Each car has over $2000 worth of health care and pension costs rolled in to it.  Its tough to compete when you have hundreds of thousands of pensioners taking from the till.  

      Why do we liberals love to bash the autos?  They provide great livings and retirments for people who only have a high school diploma.  They created the middle class.  They're unionized.  When Starbucks pays more for health care than coffee we say they are models of progressive enterprise.  When GM pays for more health care than steel we say they're stupid and hope they go under.

      They are actually a testement to why we need govt. health care and pension guarantees.

      •  We don't (3+ / 0-)
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        Odysseus, 3goldens, kefauver

        We don't "love to bash the autos".  What we liberals love to do is point to American companies that we're proud of that set us apart from the rest of the world.

        But when corporations learn to take advantage of distorted NAFTA laws that permit an American company to make their money somewhere else so that their allegience is no longer with the country that made it as wealthy as it did, and instead say "Fuck You" to its customers here at home when those customers BEGGED ... DEMANDED that they be on the cutting eds ... they are no longer something we can proud of and point to.

        Do you think I was HAPPY that Toyota did was GM should have done?

        Do you think it serves us for the Autos to ignore their customers who are warning them that the market is changing?  Do you think it's good business to drag feet and not change anything because trucks are filling their guts just fine ... until they absolutely have to because they've thrown us into the Oil Volcano with their crappy gas guzzling garbage?

        They PHONED IT IN when they should have and could have been thinking out of the box.

        Fuck them!  Let them prove they're an American Company again and maybe I'll think about spending another dime with any of them the three.

      •  It's a mix (4+ / 0-)

        Why do we liberals love to bash the autos?  They provide great livings and retirments for people who only have a high school diploma.  They created the middle class.  They're unionized.  When Starbucks pays more for health care than coffee we say they are models of progressive enterprise.  When GM pays for more health care than steel we say they're stupid and hope they go under.

        Some of the attacks do reflect legitimate criticism of the American auto industry.  Let's be honest:  U.S. automakers have screwed up a lot.

        There is, however, an unfortunate strain of classism in a lot of the critiques of U.S. automakers.  I suspect - and I admit I can't prove this, so take it with a grain of salt - that a lot of Daily Kos readers just don't identify with blue-collar work.  They do identify with a place like Starbucks; Starbucks is everywhere and it's a place they can go to and see people just like them.

        Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

        by Linnaeus on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:31:04 PM PDT

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        •  yes, blue collar work doesn't get much respect (2+ / 0-)
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          Linnaeus, Odysseus

          Let me start by agreeing with you here:

          Let's be honest:  U.S. automakers have screwed up a lot.

          the list of missed opportunities is probably longer than is allowed in a Kos post (assuming there's a limit).

          But you're also right about the attitude towards manual labor that is evident in some posts.

          My parents and grandparents were farmers and factory workers.  One delivered newspapers for 30 years because that's the best job she could get in rural Alabama.

          They were strong Democrats, but they hated being talked down to and thought that a lot of part "leaders" didn't respect them.

          I hate what's happening to the American auto industry.  My first job out of college was at a local GM plant (a salaried position, so I made less than the line workers starting out!).  The people out in the factory were hard working, smart, and glad to have good-paying jobs with benefits. Oh, and it was a unionized plant too.

          I see these headlines about losses and I know that those are the people going to pay for the failings of auto industry management - and even the shortsightedness of their own union leadership.  It sucks for them.

          Yes. There ARE progressive Democrats in Alabama. Visit with us at Left in Alabama

          by countrycat on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:08:03 PM PDT

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        •  The biggest problem for many Kossacks ... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Linnaeus, Odysseus

          ...which applies to many, if not most, Americans as well is that they think they aren't working class just because they are middle class. Yet, when their job situation sucks, their job is exported, their benefits chopped, their pension funds raided, they still say unions aren't for them.

          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 04:49:09 PM PDT

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        •  That goes both ways. (0+ / 0-)
          Detroit is a great example of an anti-intellectual gestalt.  There is a very agressive blue collar mentality of "What did all that book learning ever get you, asshole?"

          It's more than just inert resistance to change.  It's an active repudiation.

          -7.75 -4.67

          "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

          by Odysseus on Sat Aug 02, 2008 at 11:07:52 AM PDT

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          •  That does happen (0+ / 0-)

            I agree that there is a strain of anti-intellectualism in a lot of industrial towns (Detroit included), but I think it is often overstated.  There are considerable academic and technical resources in SE Michigan, and they have a very good reputation locally.

            The bottom line is that it doesn't do anyone any good for folks in places like Michigan to see their livelihoods destroyed.  Some people will get a smug sense of satisfaction out of it, but that and 2 bucks'll get you a cup of coffee.

            Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

            by Linnaeus on Sat Aug 02, 2008 at 01:06:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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