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  •  Psychology is a disturbed artform (0+ / 0-)

    Psychology is not a science. Science is testable. There must be consistent testable results in science.

    Psychology is an artform at best. Entirely interpretive and it exists at a very primitive level. That's why there are so many untestatable conflicting theories.

    It is made up largely of disturbed people who are interested in POWER.

    The APA is not condemining psychologists who participate in torture...that is a reflection of the depth of the disturbance in psychology and among psychologists. Torture is an expression of the amount of power one person has over  another individual. The "therapuetic" relationship is most often a relationship of dependency and psychologists generally seek this dependency in their patients without understanding how to use that dependency in some kind of effective way, should that be possible. Instead it is the intention of psychologists in general...not in all develop dependency among patients and keep them dependent.

    Common sense is not so common among psychologists.

    Psychology is basically a perversion. It does not attempt to understand human behavior. It attempts to define disturbed behavior as normal. Conformity, homogenity and acceptable collective expression are hallmarks of what psychologists consider "normal".

    Psychology is a diseased attempt at science. It's a diseased artform.

    Psychologist spend a lot of time defining "abnormal" behavior....and very little time understanding normal behavior. Their preocupation is a symptom of the collective disorder of psychologists

    •  Bull. (10+ / 0-)

      Just bull. Go grind your ax elsewhere.

      "All of us -- as citizens and as a government -- have a moral responsibility to each other, and what we do together matters." J.R.E., 1/30/08

      by MaskedKat on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:51:18 PM PDT

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    •  John Travolta, is that you? n/t (7+ / 0-)

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:17:47 PM PDT

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    •  Your Comment is a Disturbed Asertion (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      electric meatball, kathleen518

      Psychology is tested all the time in many ways, like any science. Its real-world experiments are peer reviewed, repeated to compare results, analyzed with common statistical analysis.

      Psychology has created a scientific understand of the mind that, although very new (came of age less than a century ago, while studying perhaps the most complex subject of all, but facing millennia of error and abuse by the most powerful institutions to overcome), has already helped both millions of individuals and global society as a whole.

      Your comment, by contrast, is a mass of unsupported assertions that are factually wrong.

      You might want to see someone about that.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:38:35 PM PDT

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      •  I don't need to see anyone (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Psychology does not claim to be a science. That's a fact. The closest it's come to approach "science" were the experiments of B.F. Skinner with pigeons.

        You cannot control the variable, the enviornment in psychology...and therefore you cannot test it.

        It's a misunderstanding to call psychology science.

        Water boils on Earth in most locations at 212 degrees...that can be tested. There are no theories about whether water boils at 212 degrees....there are many theories in psychology about human behavior and they are in opposition to each other. Some say behavior and feeling are centered in  coginitive, enviornmental, some say in the emotional realm, some say all three...some say something entirely different. Again, though it's simplistic,....Water boils at 212 degrees in almost all locations on Earth.

        Paranoia or even anxiety cannot be tested they are internal states not open to observation, they have to be inferred.

        I think  I'm informed on the subject matter.

        To call these "assertions" factually simply an expression of the kind of distortions that so many people are under.

        Look, the APA has not condemned the use of torture....that ought to be enough for anyone to understand that the field not only has "problems" but it is in effect and enabler of distrubance.

        Some people may be helped by psychologists. But those psychologists would certainly be working as outsiders. Main stream psychology is nothing more than a grouping of conflicting theories....

        •  Crazy Wrong (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          electric meatball, kathleen518

          OK, don't see anyone. But flailing your assertions in public just makes you look crazy.


          Philosophical and scientific roots

          The study of psychology in a philosophical context dates back to the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece, China and India. Psychology began adopting a more clinical[1] and experimental[2] approach under medieval Muslim psychologists and physicians, who built psychiatric hospitals for such purposes.[3]

          Though the use of psychological experimentation dates back to Alhazen's Book of Optics in 1021,[2][4] psychology as an independent experimental field of study began in 1879, when Wilhelm Wundt founded the first laboratory dedicated exclusively to psychological research at Leipzig University in Germany, for which Wundt is known as the "father of psychology".[5] 1879 is thus sometimes regarded as the "birthdate" of psychology. The American philosopher William James published his seminal book, Principles of Psychology,[6] in 1890, while laying the foundations for many of the questions that psychologists would focus on for years to come. Other important early contributors to the field include Hermann Ebbinghaus (1850–1909), a pioneer in the experimental study of memory at the University of Berlin; and the Russian physiologist Ivan Pavlov (1849-1936), who investigated the learning process now referred to as classical conditioning.

          See how I cited a reference, that in turn cites its own sources, when I stated what I claimed was a fact? That's different from your mere assertions. Even if you assert that I'm "factually wrong", that's just what is sometimes known technically as "a lot of hot air".

          The APA has not condemned torture. That political failure is totally irrelevant to whether psychology is a science.

          Now, at least link to some Scientology page as the source for your hatred of psychology. Or tell it to someone you're paying to listen.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:06:08 PM PDT

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          •  Not condemning torture is crazy (0+ / 0-)

            There is nothing that says psychology is a science in your quote. That scientists who are not psychologists, study human behavior doesn't make psychology a science....

            Coginitve theory and Behaviorism for example are Psychological "theories"....that are diametrically opposed. That should tell you something about the state of psychology. I don't have to quote anyone. I am a source.

            The fact the APA has not condemned torture tells you something about the willingness of it's members to embrace contradiction and pretense in favor of truth for reasons of profit, power and fame.

            The APA as it nows stands is an organization that aids fascism.

            Any fool knows that torturing another living being is madness. There is nothing political about it, unless you accept that politicians are mad or that politics is mad.

            Psychology is not a negative field. It's an immature field. One that has not developed much in the last 100 years.

            It's very hard for people to study other people. There's too much prejudice involved for one thing. There are many other things that make it difficult.

            One of the other things is humans generally don't want to know the truth about what they are. And what they are, are very vulnerable beings not central to the universe, that die just like other beings.

            Anyway....maybe the APA is a little NUTS....I mean...not codemning torture?

            That's crazy.

        •  Put down the e-meter cans, bub (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kurt, kathleen518

          Your absurd screed is the best proof of Mark Twain's observation, about lies getting halfway 'round the world while truth is still getting its boots on, that I have seen since the last McCain ad I viewed. To refute all of it would require more attention than your views merit, and would almost certainly fall on deaf ears anyway.

          But let's start with this tripe:

          "Paranoia or even anxiety cannot be tested they are internal states not open to observation, they have to be inferred."

          The physical sciences are shot through with conclusions arrived at by means of inferrence, rather than direct observation. Perhaps nuclear physics is not science, in your esteemed opinion? Go ask a physicist if they have ever observed a tachyon. I'm pretty sure the periodic table of elements was in existence long before it became possible to observe individual atoms (which we still haven't quite got down yet). Dind't stop the chemists from inferring how atoms and molecules worked, did it? No one to this day has observed a black hole, have they?

          Yet all these findings, all these theories, are conditionally accepted (pending better explanations and/or evidence) for the same reasons many psychological theories are. See if you can tell me what those reasons are.

          "I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm." --Marcus Aurelius

          by electric meatball on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:19:59 PM PDT

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          •  Crazy (0+ / 0-)

            Look...all I'm saying is the APA is not composed of's composed of people who follow theories in psychology, some of whom are diametrically opposed to each other...and that tells you something right there.

            You cannot do anything sceintific with inference. It has to be observalbe to be tested...that's what science says...not me.

            Sociology is not science either....

            Anyone whose a sociologist or psychologist knows that...unless they weren't educated very well.

            What I'm saying is the APA is pretentious and it's dispicable and corrupt and insincere and some of it's members promote torture whether it be on animals or humans.

            That's crazy.

            •  Wow- (0+ / 0-)

              You cannot do anything sceintific with inference. It has to be observalbe to be tested...that's what science says...not me.

              Thank you- you've shown me what a sham particle physics really is...

              ...Ya moran.

              Stranger than fiction? At this point,the truth is stranger than japanese cartoons...

              by Remembering Jello on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 07:44:42 AM PDT

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        •  I appreciate Skinner (0+ / 0-)

          Why am I always aligned with the fringies?

          Oh yeah, I attribute it to my mom feeding me columns by Jack Anderson.

          Course anxiety can be measured, as I remember, it's the sudden rise of adrenaline, the constriction of smooth muscles, and vasoconstriction.

          Also galvanic skin response increases, as do respiration and heart rate.



          "Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear: Parents, Teachers, and Associations." [Rob Petrie]

          by eroded47095 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:52:26 PM PDT

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          •  APA Psychologists involved in Torture (0+ / 0-)

            That's interesting. Skinner more than any other psychologist sought to make psychology a science. He did not suceed. He attempted to.

            Anxiety cannot be measured  scientifically. It's an internal sensation and experienced by the's private. It's not open to public inspection even if there are all kinds of wires attached to the person measuring their nervous system. The "feeling" isn't measurable...that's the problem with psycholgy...

            Feelings are central to understanding human beings....most psychologists have only the dimmest grasp....and it has to be intuitive....of what feelings are, 'how they are layered historically and therefore may appear (and actually be) in contradiction with each other, how they effect behavior, how central they are to "intelligence" and why they even exist.

            It's a gigantic problem. I don't think it will be understood any time soon.

            Only small numbers of people on the fringes sometimes grasp it in a generation...and then it can't be passed on. There is no language attached to it.

            Anyway....The APA ought to be condemened for not condemning torture.

            Only a few psychologists with some bit of conscience have resigned.

            An issue like this ought to dissolve an organization by having people leave it droves and reforming something else.

            There ought to be a category in the diagnostic manual for psychologists who are paranoid, violent and perverse...those who feel that torture is sometimes necessary...those members of the APA who have actually tortured people and animals...and one of those people is a past president of the APA.

    •  Is this Jeffry Mason? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      electric meatball, kathleen518

      hey psychology has its problems, like Rorhshach, and it is most assuredly a social science, not a natural one, but to deny that it helps a lot of people is untrue. period.We know a great deal about human behavior, largely due to psychology, and also sociology and anthropology. Come on, now. Be serious.

      •  Human Beings do not understand what they are. (1+ / 0-)
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        We know almost nothing about human behavior.

        If we did...we would understand that the world is half mad.

        All history is lies. Those lies are a part of the conciousness of human beings and in part the reasons why human beings are in general rather disturbed. Most cultures are disturbed.

        And you wonder why the American people have elected and allowed by hook or crook a person like Bush to continue for 8 years.

        And why the APA has not condemend torture. It's because the APA is filled with disturbed unprinicipled people who claim not to be distrubed and unprincipled.

        •  Among the dross, a nugget (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          of gold, even if unintentional.

          "We know almost nothing about human behavior."

          That may the the first sensible, factually accurate assertion you've made all thread.

          That's because we have only been studying human behavior and mental processes scientifically for a little over a hundred years. An awfully short time to spend on what is likely the most complex field science will ever encounter. To characterize the findings of psychology as 'knowledge' is inaccurate. Better to say that they reflect the most current state of our understanding, which is incomplete and likely to remain that way.

          Of course, scientific methodology is itself not much older than academic psychology, so in truth we know almost nothing about anything - at least not in proportion to what there is to know.

          Which makes your cocksure assertions even more laughable, ironically...  Certainty is the enemy of reason, always. It's no accident that those with the most certainty usually prove to be the most wrong in the end.

          "I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm." --Marcus Aurelius

          by electric meatball on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:40:10 PM PDT

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        •  Disagree. (0+ / 0-)

          It is because we have learned so much about human behavior that the media can so successfully manipulate the electorate. chomsky makes this point over and over; the same people who sell us products are hired to run campaigns. They know that slick advertising and negative campaigning works. Propaganda works. This is because we know so much about how people will react...the wolves ad in 2004 was just one effective demonstration of this in action. Along with some theft in Ohio, which may have delivered the presidency to Bush, but honestly, had Kerry won Ohio, he might not have won the popular vote ( from what I've read ) which means massive numbers still voted for Bush, laregly as a reaction to fear. And swiftboating, which is again being done to the current candidate, by the same whether that makes people, or half the world , Mad, well that depends i guess...

      •  Nothing wrong with Rorschach (0+ / 0-)

        They took the ink blots, showed them to tons of people, recorded their answers, then showed them to other people and then compared their answers to the original set, and inferred shit.

        What's wrong with that?

        "Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear: Parents, Teachers, and Associations." [Rob Petrie]

        by eroded47095 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:57:10 PM PDT

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        •  well (0+ / 0-)

          because perfectly normal people come off looking pathological. It was anthropologists who first recognized that Rohrshach was kind of suspect, as they attmepted early on to use psychological methods to study cultures.There was one prominent folklorist, i forget his name, a giant in the field, who talked about how in Ukraine, I think it was, molten lead was dropped in water and the shapes that formed analyzed by local shamans ( for lack of a better term ). He thought this was just as valid as using Rohrshach to study a population, I mean, why not? This doesn't mean Rohrshach is totally useless, but it does have some problems; can youtrust the interpreter? Does he/she have a bias to look for certain problems? Does the subject give honest answers? The psychologists i work with don't like it and don't use it. Can't speak for anybody else, and as a social worker, ahem, I am not allowed to interpret test scores. Nor can a psychiatrist, only a psychologist is allowed to do that.

    •  jesus, I think you need to see a shrink! n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades

      Eyes on the Prize - JedReport

      by juslikagrzly on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:54:57 PM PDT

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