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View Diary: Here we go again. (200 comments)

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  •  I might well have missed it (2+ / 0-)
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    inclusiveheart, zett

    But where are people saying "that Obama's (incorrect) FISA vote gave rise to Bush's Executive Order," etc.?

    •  Upthread someone just told me (0+ / 0-)

      that by compromising on FISA, the door was opened for more abuses.  I'll put it like this and then the fuck out of this thread before I just lose it: Bush has been issuing illegal executive orders since 2001.  And Congress, Republican and Democratic, haven't done the first fucking thing about it.  I wish too that Obama would have chosen to buck the regressives in this party and risk intraparty war over the July 2008 amendment because yes it was that important.  But he didn't.  And me and others telling people that winning the WH is even more important is no less principled than others who'd choose to tear the only nominee we have a new one 3 months away from the presidential elections.

      I posted links in two places for anyone actually interested in bitching about at least the DOJ guidelines portion of this plan to the people who might be able to do something about it.

      •  Yes, but Obama didn't do that alone (2+ / 0-)
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        3goldens, limpidglass

        he had lots of company.  We're in agreement on that.  I don't see anyone saying he did it alone, and if they did say that, they're wrong.  The two differences between us that I see are:

        1. That as the presumptive Democratic nominee, his vote, to me and I think to others, has just a tad more symbolism to it.
        1. Criticizing him is different from "tearing" him.  Are you saying we should just shut up?  If so, why, and at one point is it okay to speak?
        •  Claiming that Obama believes in neither (0+ / 0-)

          the rule of law nor the Constitution is something being parroted right in this thread, as are comments insinuating there's something wrong with discouraging the pile-on which did in fact focus almost solely on Obama regarding that vote.  I no longer know what to say to some of these people; I told one to just vote for the GOP and get it over with.

          •  That's different from your initial point here (1+ / 0-)
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            about Obama's vote giving rise to something else Bush did.  However, the fact that you would see criticism of him regarding that vote as a "pile-on" leads me to again ask the question I asked in my previous comment to which you provided no answer:

            Are you saying we should just shut up?  If so, why, and at what point is it okay to speak?

            Okay, that's two questions.

            Furthermore, how many people are saying that Obama believes in neither the rule of law nor the Constitution?  One?  Twelve?  16 million?  You really do seem to be a bit hyperbolic.  

            Finally, while I personally wouldn't go as far as that statement, I would certainly say that he hasn't exactly demonstrated his love for either.  I mean, wouldn't it be nice to have the Democratic presidential nominee, never mind the Democratic Party, make a campaign issue out of the gutting of the Constitution that the Republicans have done (too often with Democratic assistance)?

            •  How many people in that mybo FISA (0+ / 0-)

              group could identify that bill's co-sponsors from the house?  How many made phone calls, sent emails, and made just as big of a stink about each senator and house rep who supported the FISA amendment?  Yeah, it was a pile-on and a crazy one at that.

              And how can someone force someone else to shut up?  If your supporter strategy for this campaign season is to loudly question the nominee's bona fides even in the face of bad moves and missteps, so be it have a ball.

              •  Since these are rhetorical questions (1+ / 0-)
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                to which you obviously already know the answers because of some secret, magic powers that you clearly have, I won't even bother to say anything else.

                •  Give me a break (0+ / 0-)

                  I need no pyschic powers to detect a pile on and a frenzy.  Just like now, where rather than stating the problem, stating what we can do to voice our opinions on the Bushist spying program (which guess what? wasn't put in place in July 2007 and which was given the blessing of all manner of scared low-info in this country watching "24") to the people who have the power to challenge it, people are screaming FISA FISA.  I need to be Dionne Warwick to question whether the reaction was misguided and overly focused on one person?  I don't think so.

                  Obama has already moved mountains even in the face of unsteady, unreliable support from progressive stalwarts.  Between his campaign and the peanut gallery, guess who I trust to move us, even incrementally, from the GOP hell which this country voted us into?  The contest is not even close.

                  •  Thank you for making my point for me (0+ / 0-)

                    so much better than I ever could.

                    •  Whatever Aunt Martha (0+ / 0-)

                      People who know they'll survive Bush II clearly couldn't care less, but I will not now nor ever tear into the good in fruitless pursuit of the perfect.  This country is too precious and the people whose lives are actually on the line at this moment are too precious.

                      People can do what they want at this point, but I'm very secure about who I've put my bet on.  

                      •  I'm glad you feel secure (0+ / 0-)

                        it's your reading comprehension abilities I question.  You consistently read intentions, motivations, desires, actions, inactions, who knows what else into me and other people here without any basis for doing so, and from that make all sorts of sweeping overgeneralizations and, frankly, insults that seem to have no basis in anything other than your own sense of your own superiority.

                        As Kurt Vonnegut would say, "So it goes."

                        •  You've got to be kidding (0+ / 0-)

                          Your comments have been just as high-handed - only a few comments upthread you accused me of believing that I have secret and magic powers.

                          I love it when commenters like you who write comments full of insults that do in fact smack of superiority end a debate with me by launching one final insult summing up the whole of my supposed bad qualities.  It's actually a pattern.

                          LOL, have a nice Sunday Aunt Martha.

          •  the problem with "leaders" (0+ / 0-)

            as described by Eugene V Debs (who always rejected the idea that he was a "leader" --- "If I lead you, that means I can mislead you, too."

            The progressive movement can't depend on any "leader" to get things done.  It can only depend on collective action by ALL of us. Obama is an ally.  He's not a god.  

            It remains to be seen whether he's even a particularly good ally.

            Editor, Red and Black Publishers

            by Lenny Flank on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 08:46:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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