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  •  Who says life begins at conception? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave Brown
    •  any biologist? (0+ / 0-)

      do you think the fertilized egg is dead?

      If it is dead, how does it grow?

      •  the same way (0+ / 0-)

        fully formed babies are born dead, ask me how I know? Have you ever experienced that?

        •  your answer makes no sense. (0+ / 0-)

          Fully formed babies are born dead, because sometime in the womb, as they were growing, something went wrong, and they died.

          They were alive before they died.

          And no I haven't experienced that.  I am sorry for you though.  My mom told me that she had three miscarriages, and I was 38 before the first time I ever heard her talk about it.  She had never mentioned it before, but she seemed so sad when she did.

        •  Not only (0+ / 0-)

          does a mother deall with the fact her child is not alive in utero, she carries a fetus full term knowing she will not be taking a beby home when it is expelled.

          So I ask you again, how can you so blithely state the Catholic church has this nailed down?

          Biologists, nor doctors have an answer to this situation, ask me how do I know? Unless you have experienced carrying something within you that is not living do not begin to presume you know absolutes!!

          No one does

          •  you are still not making sense. (0+ / 0-)

            It is possible for a baby to die in utero, certainly.

            But you can't die without having lived.  That baby was alive before it died.  Heart beating.  Sucking its thumb.  Just like any other child.

            •  According to the doctors (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dave Brown, Karma for All

              The child never formed correctly, never had a heartbeat, nothing, however it continued to grow. According to the doctors, the fetus could have been aborted but was carried to term. There was never any life in the womb, rather a feus being fed and growing. I guess fulfilling genetic characteristics but missing the most fundamental requirements.

              I am sorry for snapping at you earlier. I see you really have never heard of this happening, It does and it is a heartbreaking thing. Wondering if you did anything, having researchers wanting to examine your fetus in utero to discover why. Anyway I digress.

              I do no believe life begins at the moment of conception, no church or government will convince me differently. if the child had been alive in the womb and died later, perhaps. But medical science being what it is, did not confirm that

              •  And you are entitled to those beliefs, because (0+ / 0-)

                thank God we still live in a free society in which rational discourse trumps faith-based arguments.

                I am sorry that anyone chooses to argue with your own life experiences.  

              •  I am sorry for your experience. (0+ / 0-)

                If there is some link to whatever this issue is called, I would be glad to read it.

                But I don't believe what you were told.  Beyond some point, a fetus is relatively self sustaining, and requires blood flow, which requires a heart beat.

              •  Actually, without a heartbeat, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RunawayRose, Right as Rain

                ..I don't think you can get a full term stillbirth. You can have fetal deaths at term with a defective heart, but if it doesn't function at all, I think the fetus would die earlier in the process. Someone with more medical knowledge may be better able to address this.

                Another OWW4O (thanks, Cyber Kat!)

                by Ahianne on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 08:25:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Is mistletoe a tree? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Are mitochondria human?

              I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

              by arielle on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 11:44:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Conversely, is the unfertilized egg dead? (4+ / 0-)

        Nope, it's quite alive!

        Life is a continuum . . . it's just plain silly to state unequivocally that life begins at conception.  

        •  Again, its the wrong question. (0+ / 0-)

          The question is when a new, biologically distinct life begins, and when do we value it.

          A human's life is a continuum with singularities (a mathematical term) at each end.  

          So I am curious, when do you think an individual's life begins? If you think the conception answer is silly, then what is the correct answer?

          •  Sure, there is some gray area (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dave Brown

            but I'd urge you (if you actually are serious about learning . . .) to at least peruse the relavent wikipedia entry

            You will see that the generally accepted view of Western Society is that an "individual" "person" or "human being" (pick whatever term you like) has to be capable of certain functions and cognative abilities.  None of which a fertilized egg has.

            •  that's wikipedia. (0+ / 0-)

              I could go edit it right now, and change it to my opinion.

              Would that make it more valid to you?

              People don't want to recognize a fertilized egg as a human, because it means they would have to take their responsibilities seriously, and that is a hard thing to do.

              •  No, you couldn't (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dave Brown

                wikipedia has safeguards against nutcases sabotaging their entries . . .

                •  why do you call me a nutcase? (0+ / 0-)

                  Because I have different values than you do?

                  •  I call you a nutcase (3+ / 0-)

                    because, quite bluntly, the idea that a fertilized egg is a person, is completely nutty.

                    If you said, life begins at conception - well, on some levels that is true, albeit weasly (no offense to our furry friends) - but a "person"?  No way.

                    •  then what makes a person? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      It isn't because someone values you.  It is because you are valuable.

                      If you don't accept the definition that all people are valuable, then don't be surprised someday when you are not valued.  After all, that person just made a value judgment according to their own belief system, and you didn't fit in.

                      Boo hoo for you.  

                      There are only two self consistent belief systems. One that says "only I count.  There are no morals, and it is every man for himself."

                      The other system is that everyone counts.  Everything in between is a some utilitarian approach that falls apart when you look at it closely.  I am amazed at the cognitive dissonance that goes on in people's heads to make it work.  How can they believe that  person is not valuable one day, but 3 months later they are. What happened in between?

                      I prefer to believe that everyone counts.

      •  HR'ed to flag, please capture IP #, see admission (0+ / 0-)

        on trolling and sock-puppets below.  

      •  the sperm is alive. the eg is alive. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Karma for All, Kayakbiker


        both are alive, both are living.

        but when they meet, these two living things become one living thing, right?  from two comes one. meaning that one dies.

        so if you contend that life begins at conception, then you have to also admit that life ends at conception.


        it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

        -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

        by dadanation on Thu Aug 21, 2008 at 10:52:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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