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View Diary: KOS member gets secret hidden agenda FOI doc on draft -- Posted on Rock the Vote Blog (145 comments)

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  •  Kerry isn't dishonest about it. (none)
    He isn't in office yet.

    Until he is, he can't do anything to fix the mess.

    A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

    by jnagarya2 on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 04:20:10 PM PDT

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    •  As long as he keeps saying (none)
      he can "win" the war in Iraq, I don't think he's being honest.  If he limited himself to saying that Iraq is a mess, a very big mess, and that he has a plan to resolve this as best as it can be done, I wouldn't find that "dishonest."   However, as soon as he says, "I can win this war," he loses me.
      •  We won the war in Kosovo under the Democrats (none)
        Didn't we?  How many dead?


        How many dead in the peace in the entire Balkans that followed?


        Who brokered the Balkans Peace Accord?


        How many dead in Iraq?


        You say Iraq, I say successful Kosovo model and future Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke.

        Problem almost solved right there!

        •  None of those really qualified as wars... (4.00)
          They were police actions where we went in to stabilize the area.  We didn't actually go in, overthrow the government and uproot the entire governmental power structure (for what it's worth we didn't even do that in Germany after WWII).  We don't need a larger army to handle things like Kosovo.  

          The truth is the invasion of Iraq has been a strategic catastrophe of epic proportions.  I think even many here do not realize just how much of a disaster the decision to invade Iraq was (even before everything went to shit over there, although that should have been expected ahead of time).  

          In Britain they admit to having royalty. In the United States we pretend we don't have any, and then we elect them president.

          by Asak on Sat Oct 09, 2004 at 09:11:23 PM PDT

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      •  And you assume he means "win" (none)
        in the way Nixon or Bushit would?

        Gad, I'm with you: I wish I could control the language of the campaign so the ideologically pure would be satisfied, so then we'd have another four years of Bushit.

        A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

        by jnagarya2 on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 07:44:10 AM PDT

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        •  I have no idea nor do you -- (none)
          merely reporting that he says that he "can win this war."  His words, not mine.  And then I can only point out that his words are strangely reminiscent of Nixon in 1968.  And that disturbs me greatly because I remember what followed.

          Ideologically pure language?  Expecting a DEM POTUS candidate not to sound like Nixon is "ideologically pure?"  One reason why Bush is in the WH is because conservative DEMs have spent more time and energy denigrating the left than they have denigrating the GOP and their Mayberry Machiavilli wing.  We should have a rule here that everytime anyone posts "then vote for Nader" or some variation of "vote for Bush" in an argument that they have "jumped the shark" or whatever that other term is.

          •  I lived through Nixon as an (none)

            In fact, as well, I lived through being eligible for the draft into 1968.

            In other words: the words are not new, nor are they necessarily of the same meaning as Nixon's use of them.  We do have, many say, a right-of-center electorate, so it would make sense to speak to speak in language they can interpret favorably.

            "Win" can mean many things.  You're correct, I don't know -- but neither do you.  But as one can find different meanings for words, that sorta rules out your firm conclusion that he means what your ears hear.

            A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

            by jnagarya2 on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 02:38:09 PM PDT

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            •  I prefer not to rationalize (none)
              why someone would use particular rhetoric -- you have concluded that he doens't mean what he says and it is only politically expediant and designed to manipulate those who cannot tolerate the fact that there is no US "win" possible in Iraq.

              I also don't neglect to note how over time that many moderate to liberal DEM representatives sent to DC become influenced by the MIC and become more militaristic in outlook than before entering that culture.  

              Right now neither Bush nor Kerry can admit to any error in judgment even though the facts don't support either.  Not exactly a trait that voters who are not firmly committed GOP or DEM voters find especially attractive.  IMO describing Iraq as a mess we have to clean up would resonate with more uncommitted voters than "I can win this war."  That is why these people continue to claim that they can't see that Kerry is proposing anything different from Bush.  And invoking the threat of Iran and NK doesn't improve the situation because everybody knows that Bush will get around to those when he can, and Kerry will have enabled him to convince the country that we have to go after those bad guys too.  

              I'm not at all confused as to the differences in FP between Kerry and Bush beyond Iraq.  Bush and his NeoCons are insane.  But right now their insanity is being played out in Iraq and conceding in any way that it was not insane to go there and "winning" is an option will sink anyone in power who attempts to play under those two assumptions.

              •  I didn't say "manipulate". (none)
                And Kerry is nowhere near as dumb as your conclusions suggest.

                And I'm not speaking as whatever a "committed Dem" is -- I have many complaints with the party.  And have criticisms of Kerry.  I am speaking, however, as one who has followed his public career since its beginning.

                A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

                by jnagarya2 on Sun Oct 10, 2004 at 05:19:35 PM PDT

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