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View Diary: Early voting in South Florida: Already FUBAR! (154 comments)

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  •  This is why (3.50)
    (although won't can say this on dailykos without getting harrassed, tarred and feathered) I think this election is lost before it starts. The folks in power, and more importantly the Dominionists ehind the scenes, will do anything to win. We will not have a fair election (I do believe Kerry would win that). We will have massive fraud, and in key precincts Republicans operatives will change the votes to give Nader just enough to tip the balance (they are too clever to just shift them from Kerry to Bush), or they will just "disappear" a portion of the vote.

    This is the culmination of 20 years of creeping coup by the Theocratic Ultra-Right. They have their messiah, and they are not about to let him lose. Not to mention all the robber-baron criminals (Cheney & company) who could never shred all the incriminating documents they'd need to shred if Kerry took over the White House.

    The only hope for this country is that the masses of young people who registered will actually turn out to vote, and that that will be enough to swamp any efforts to heist the election.

    I'm not optimistic - NOT because the Dems are doing anything wrong, but because antidemocratic forces are determined to prevail.

    I hope I'm wrong. You have no idea how much I hope I'm wrong.

    "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

    by galiel on Mon Oct 18, 2004 at 11:09:08 AM PDT

    •  glad to know (none)
      that someone else on here can worry aloud about the Dominionists...without putting on the tinfoil hat.

      scary!  

      •  I've been talking about this (3.75)
        For four years, even before 9/11. For the first two years, I was laughed at as a conspiracy kook.

        In 2003, the typical reaction was nervous "they are still a fringe, they might want to take over but the robber-barons are just using them for oil" denial.

        For most of 2004, it was more like, "oh, c'mon, this is AMERICA! Stuff like that just doesn't happen here!"

        Now, when it's finally hit the mainstream press, people are beginning to take notice - although there is still no appreciation for how methodically the theocrats have pursued power for the past 20 years, at every level of our body politic as well as in corporate America and the media; and there is no appreciation for the systematic depth of their penetration into our government, our judiciary, our legislature, our media, our business leadership, our philanthropy and our religious institutions.

        We are poised at the cusp of a literal end to democracy, yet folks are in the same kind of denial Germany was in the 1920's.

        "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

        by galiel on Mon Oct 18, 2004 at 11:35:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey kook (3.83)
          Hey freak.  Hey anger-nut-case.  Get over it.

          I still say that at this very fucking second the United States is not a Democracy.  George Bush and the USSC trashed it.

          I've been margianalized, written off, sneered at, and called a sore loser countless times.   An anger case, a freak, a weirdo ranting about votes and Democracy in the US.

          Here we are four years later and of course precisely the same issues and questions are with us, for if predictably Bush didn't take democracy seriously our corporate media certainly didn't.

          Will your vote count? the incredible assholes at Newsweek asked just a week ago.  Hey Einstein's, it's a little fucking late to ask, you know. The bill was in Congress three years ago that gave us these infernal machines.  It never mattered to them until it was far too late.

          Times like these are when I desperately want to emigrate.  It's the fucking lying, denial and dishonesty that galls me so.  It would be one thing to live under a dictatorship, shoulder the burdens and live.

          It's quite another to live in a semi-dictatorship of Bush and have the war felon constntly espouse deomcracy while he shits on it--even here at home!  The media never seems to notice the contradiction of Bush's foreign policy rants:  Democracy will promote freedom and safety.  Total bullshit, all of it.  They also never point out the US's problems, or if they do it's far too late.  This internal lying and denail just drives me up the wall.

          Thanks a lot, Newsweek.  Idiot scumbags.

        •  Not alone. (none)
          You are not alone.  I've been thinking very similar thoughts when I first heard that GW had been sobered up, saved, and was running for president.    I thought it was bad enough when his dad left the CIA to become President.  & now his son was being pulled into the same position with a guy that dosed enlisted men during the Nixon era.  No, I don't wear a tin hat.  It IS scary.
    •  This is why not (4.00)
      Though I won't disagree with your pessimistic assessment of what the neo-fascists are willing and able to do, I would like to offer both an extension of hope and a call to action.

      Regardless of what they succeed in doing between now and Nov. 3rd - and in the courts after Nov. 3rd - it can all be undone. Yes, all of it. But we must force the undoing - it is up to us.

      By far the most important part of the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 (roundly ignored by the DC/Media Analstocracy) was the scene of the Congressional Black Caucus pleading for the nation's leaders to defend the Constitution and disallow the unlawful Florida electors. And the corresponding Democratic Senators sitting on their hands while a tragedy far worse that any terrorist attack occurred.

      This tragedy need not be repeated.

      An election is not a sporting event or contest of any kind. And it is certainly not the Stalinist undertaking the republicans have demonstrated that they are willing to make it:

      Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. -- Josef Stalin

      It is, in every real sense, a method of measuring the will of the electorate.  

      Regardless of the "scorecard" on Nov. 3rd, the will of the electorate can still easily prevail. It will be our duty to force our "leaders" to refuse to accept another UnConstitutional, Anti-American, unethical, immoral result.

      We simply have to open our mouths. As we failed to do last time. We need to demand that on January 6th, 2005 the new Congress invalidate any tainted electors.

      This includes stifling our reflexive defeatist attitude and do it anyway. Even if we don't take the Senate and House and "have the votes." There are at least 3 Republican Senators and over a dozen Republican Congressmen who will do the right thing for America. But the public must demand it.

      There is no other way we continue to consider ourselves patriots.

      Get ready. Stop complaining. Start talking. We will be heard.

      •  And one more thing... (none)
        A brief has already been prepared to force the required action by Congress.

        Failed 2001 Brief

      •  And where (none)
        would a concerned Kossack go online to keep up with the news on THIS sort of front? What groups would be involved in that sort of action, if it comes to that?
      •  Thanks (none)
        Your reminder of the shameful scene of the Senate from F9/11 was right-on, and a reminder that, not only do we each need to do our part, but we need to hold our elected representatives feet to the fire to make sure THEY do their part in the nearly-inevitable battle to come (even if Bush loses, the zealots are not just going to fade into the night--they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming from the halls of power, and their remnants rooted out of every bureaucracy and dark corner of our government. The WORST thing a Kerry campaign could do is plead to early for a misguided "coming together" and forgiveness.

        What we will need is a national Truth and Reconciliation campaign, at the least, so we can expose these bastards and their antidemocratic plots to the sunlight before, if we have to, we move on)

        I really didn't post this to spread defeatism or sap anyone's energy, I posted it to share my fears for a country I dearly love with the only people I think can understand.

        "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

        by galiel on Mon Oct 18, 2004 at 12:56:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please... (none)
          ...don't take my comments at all personally. The defeatism I was speaking of is that which too often comes to those on the left when confronted with difficult or seemingly insurmountable odds.

          Because of our tolerant nature, we have developed a blind spot to the importance of accusation in and of itself. The same is true for punishment.

          We forget that when you fail to accuse or punish, when warranted, you become complicit in the immoral activity.

          As the Senate Dems were complicit it putting the Constitution into breach on Jan. 6, 2001.

          We all need to resist that part of our nature in times of real crisis.

          •  The resistance is alive and well (none)
            My son reminded me last night of the stupidest thing I have ever said.  When Bush was elected in 2000 my son came over to my house and asked me what I thought.  I told him, "how much damage can one man do in four years?"  We had had many conversations about Governor George over the years because of my anti-death penalty protests so he knew how much I loathed him.  In 2000 I was in my typical Democratic mode of accept and tolerate.  

            Well, no more.  In the midst of my tirade he stopped me and said what a difference four years makes.  He mentioned after Kerry wins I can concentrate on other things.  I told him not a chance, I've packed up that tolerance and outsourced it to India.   This pacifist wants their collective blood ... they've turned the corner into the courtroom that will sentence them to life.

            I can only hope they all look putrid in orange.  

            Unlikely words from a Buddhist?  Yep, and I don't take any of it back.  I better go meditate for the health of my soul.  

            "Winning the war is the military's job, winning the peace is the president's job." John Kerry October 8, 2004

            by caliberal on Mon Oct 18, 2004 at 04:19:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  would it have mattered? (none)
        IANAL, but this guy says disqualifying electors would have just thrown the election to the House where Bush would have won anyway. Somebody who knows more about it should straighten me out, if not.

        "We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility." --A. Lincoln

        by uffdalib on Mon Oct 18, 2004 at 04:44:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  He has his facts right... (none)
          ...but not his assumptions.

          Like most people, even the well-informed, he is parrotting DC/Media Analstocracy propaganda from the time. There were many talking heads, including good number of "legal experts," pooh-poohing the possibility of any real challenge to the (agreed upon fact**) of the election theft.

          His "legal" argument (more acurately rationalization) is based on the faulty (and deceptive) assumption that all political actors would have behaved as he presumes. He also relies on a parenthetic assumption about "the public mood" which fails to take into account that moods change.

          Had the objection been taken up, real people (with real consciences) would have been forced to take a stand and justify it to their constituents and history. The "Go Back to Bed America" crowd (Bill Hicks) would have been outed. It's one thing to not want to get involved (particularly for politicians), it's quite another to be made an active partner in treasonous election theft.

          I have difficulty believing that Chaffee, Snowe, Hagel, McCain, and Mike Castle's Tuesday Group would all have ignored their Democratic colleagues pleads for justice.

          Sadly, the propagandists were successful in appealing to our aforementioned defeatism.

          __

          **I say "agreed upon fact" because no one with a brain actually believed (without engaging in strained willful ignorance) that the people of Florida, and therefore the nation, actually intended the bushkid to be the elected leader (as opposed to the appointed ruler he actually is).

          The extrapolation of the "uncounted votes" by precinct in Florida made it clear (by tens of thousands of voters - if not counted ballots) that the electorate chose Gore.

          The truth is that had Al Gore rose to his historic challenge and stood on the steps of the Formally-Supreme Court and said what he believed (and btw what every unbaised analysis of the court edict has said since), that this "ruling" is clearly logical and/or legalistic hogwash, he would have led the nation into the needed discussion that could well have preserved the will of the electorate, without the need for the noble yet futile stand of the CBC.

          •  what about the House (none)
            You say "I have difficulty believing that Chaffee, Snowe, Hagel, McCain, and Mike Castle's Tuesday Group would all have ignored their Democratic colleagues pleads for justice."

            I too regret that Gore didn't stand up for all of us. Gore is too much of an upstanding guy to have envisioned what the country was in for at the hands of the Cheney-Bush administration. I would like to understand your argument that the challenge might well have succeeded, but I am confused by the fact that all those you name except Castle are Senators. The point at issue in my post is whether Bush would have won in the House, i.e. wouldn't the challenge to Florida's electors surely have failed there, making him president? What list of Republicans with a spine would you put forth to reach a majority for the challenge in the House?

            "We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility." --A. Lincoln

            by uffdalib on Mon Oct 18, 2004 at 09:39:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well... (none)
              ...first of all, Mike Castle's Tuesday Group is roughly a dozen moderates. Not many, but enough.

              But success didn't necessarily require any spine from anyone. Had the debate been engaged the reality of the situation may well have overridden anything the DC/Media Analstocracy could shovel out.

              As Clinton said, given enough information and time the (formerly) American People always get it right. With luck, we would probably have gotten the same public opinion poll numbers as we did for removing Clinton from office.

              The spine would be required to oppose 70% of the public. The neofascists as a group don't have that spine. As evidenced by the fact that they defaulted to defecating on the institution of the high court to finish this thing.

              If you recall, their first plan was to use the FL legislature to carry out the coup. Luntz's polling told them that simply wouldn't fly. That soiling the black robes was the only thing that would get past the public.

              And even that was only temporary. Polling on the bushkid not winning "fair and square" started at around 15%. It climbed steadily until it reached a strong plurality. Enough so that the "we won't forget" crowd felt strong enough to mount an impeachment effort against the Felonious Five.

              Democrats.com had scheduled a press conference in DC to announce the initiative.

              The press conference was scheduled for 9/11/01.

              (cue the ominous-sounding music)

    •  there's always the same amount of liquid (4.00)
      in the glass, whether it's half full or half empty.  there's nothing wrong with being pessimistic, but it isn't actually any more "realistic" than optimism, it's just a better way to plan.

      and "doing anything to win" isn't historically or statistically any more successful than being in the right place at the right time.

      just do what you can, okay?  

    •  Not over til the fat lady sings... (4.00)
      If the theft of the election were a fait accompli, they wouldn't be trying so hard to steal our votes--even to tripping over themselves and looking like fools.

      Hang in there!  

      I think we need a 5% to 10% advantage to overcome their various election crimes, and I think we've got it.  (The polls are absurdly flawed--they are skewed toward past elections, weighted toward Republicans, and do not include new factors, like huge Dem voter registration, young voters motived by potential Draft, no cell phone users polled, etc., etc.)  

      And if their junta succeeds in making it look like they won, and their propaganda machine, the US news media, responds as expected, our new grass roots democracy movement is not going to go away.  It is very strong.  We WILL win in the end, and recover our country.

      REMEMBER:  If they're trying to steal your vote, IT'S STILL WORTH STEALING!

    •  Millions upon millions (none)
      of us hitting the streets of Washington, DC.  That's what we need to have if Bush "wins".

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