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View Diary: Joe The Plumber Admits He Wasn't Undecided After All (586 comments)

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  •  Joe would fit right in in Alaska (8+ / 0-)

    Democrats: The party of "We The People"

    by DannyB on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:23:00 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Joe the Plumber apparently had a news conference (52+ / 0-)

      SARAH PALIN hasn't even done a news conference.

      What the hell is going on? Have we entered the twilight zone?

      "We don't throw the first punch, but we'll throw the last."
      ~ Barack Obama
      10.6.2008
      You dopes just got SCHOOL'D-- OBAMA Style!

      by Muzikal203 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:26:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not digging this whole front page post (0+ / 0-)

      That video was not at all conclusive.

      More information on this guy would be useful, but based on what we have, the claims made about this guy are not reasonably substantiated.

      He got cut off by Couric before he could say a word about Obama; for all we know, he was going to say positive things about both candidates.  (He very well may not have - but the point is this is all too speculative)

      The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

      by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:28:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Straight Dope on The McCain Plant (15+ / 9-)

        Name: SAMUEL JOSEPH WURZELBACHER  
        Date of Birth: 12/3/1973

        Addresses:
        355 SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH 43528-9520    
        30 DERBYSHIRE RD, TOLEDO OH 43615-5515    
        5956 WALNUT CIR APT APT-I, TOLEDO OH 43615-6601    
        5768 STEFFENS AVE, TOLEDO OH 43623-1633    
        1960 W KEATING AVE APT 150, MESA AZ 85202-7011    
        1960-A W KEATING AVE APT 592, MESA AZ 85202-7077    
        7195 W ODESSY WAY, TUCSON AZ 85743    
        1214 CEDAR AVE UNIT B, GRAND FORKS AFB ND 58204-4033    
        GENERAL DELIVERY, GRAND FORKS ND 58201-9999    
        3397 DELWOOD ST, NORTH POLE AK 99705    
        736 OUIDA WAY APT A, NORTH POLE AK 99705-7684    
        6620 BRINT RD, SYLVANIA OH 43560-3122    
        7950 E STELLA RD APT 13K, TUCSON AZ 85730-1947

        Liens and Judgments:
               Filing Number:   CVF0705807
               Filing Type:  CIVIL NEW FILING
               Location:  LUCAS COUNTY MUNICIPAL COURT
               State:  OH
               Original Filing Date: 3/27/2007
               Amount: $1,261
               Debtor Name: SAMUEL WURZELBACHER
               Debtor SSN: 271-66-xxxx
               Debtor Address: 355 SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH 43528-9520
               Creditor: ST CHARLES MERCY HOSPITAL

               Filing Number:   LN0200701803
               Filing Type:  STATE TAX LIEN
               Book/Page:  460/303
               Location:  LUCAS COUNTY COMMON PLEAS
               State:  OH
               Original Filing Date: 1/26/2007
               Amount: $1,182
               Debtor Name: SAMUEL J WURZELBACHER
               Debtor SSN: 271-66-xxxx
               Debtor Address: 30 DERBYSHIRE RD, TOLEDO OH 43615-5515
               Creditor: STATE OF OHIO

               Filing Number:   CV0003328FD
               Filing Type:  CIVIL DISMISSAL
               Location:  SOUTH MESA JUSTICE COURT
               State:  AZ
               Original Filing Date: 11/15/2000
               Debtor Name: SAMUEL WURZELBACHER
               Debtor SSN: 271-66-xxxx
               Debtor Address: 1960 W KEATING AVE APT 150, MESA AZ 85202-7011
               Creditor: WXI MCN ACCO REAL ESTATE LTD

               Filing Number:   CV0003237RB
               Filing Type:  CIVIL DISMISSAL
               Location:  SOUTH MESA JUSTICE COURT
               State:  AZ
               Original Filing Date: 11/9/2000
               Release Date:   1/18/2001
               Debtor Name: SAMUEL WURZELBACHER
               Debtor SSN: 271-66-xxxx
               Debtor Address: 1960 W KEATING AVE APT 150, MESA AZ 85202-7011
               Creditor: MONTGOMERY WARD CREDIT CORP

        Property:
                      Parcel Number - 65-62411
                      Name Owner : WURZELBACHER, SAMUEL
                      Property Address: - 355 SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH 43528-9520, LUCAS COUNTY
                      Owner Address: 355 SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH 43528-9520, LUCAS COUNTY
                      Sale Date - 08/06/2008
                      Name of Seller : WURZELBACHER KIMBERLY M
                      Loan Amount - $127,281
                      Loan Type - FEDERAL HOUSING AUTHORITY
                     

             
               Property:
                      Parcel Number - 65-62411
                      Name Owner : WURZELBACHER SAMUEL J
                      Name Owner 2: WURZELBACHER KIMBERLY M
                      Property Address: - 355 SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH 43528-9520, LUCAS COUNTY
                      Owner Address: 355 SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH 43528-9520, LUCAS COUNTY
                      Total Market Value - $117,114
                      Assessed Value - $40,990
                      Land Value - $20,800
                      Improvement Value - $96,314
                      Land Size - 7,772 Square Feet
                      Year Built - 1965
                      Name of Seller : QUINTO WALTER A & BONNIE J
                      Loan Amount - $113,850
                      Loan Type - CONVENTIONAL
                      Lender Name - COUNTRYWIDE HM LNS INC
                     

        Offender information
        Name: WURZELBACHER, SAMUEL
        Address: AK
        Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
        Case Filing Date: 8/12/1993
        Case Type: Minor Offense
        DOB: 12/1973
        SSN: 271-66-XXXX
        Sex: Unknown

        Offenses
        Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
        Court Description: Fourth District - Fairbanks
        Court Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
        Court Statute: SPEEDING 74/55
        Court Disposition Date: 8/16/1993

        Offender information
        Name: WURZELBACHER, SAMUEL
        Address: AK
        Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
        Case Filing Date: 8/12/1993
        Case Type: Minor Offense
        DOB: 12/1973
        SSN: 271-66-XXXX
        Sex: Unknown

        Offenses
        Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
        Court Description: Fourth District - Fairbanks
        Court Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
        Court Statute: SPEEDING 74/55
        Court Disposition Date: 8/16/1993

        Source:  webofdeception.com

        You go to war not with the reasons you have, but with the reasons you might want or wish to have. - The Republican Credo

        by judyneric on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:30:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sfgb, PsychoSavannah, dotster

          Alaska connection.

          Freedom is the distance between church and state - (palin protest sign)

          by xeromachine on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:36:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Whether the guy is a plant (13+ / 0-)

          or not, this was just way, way over the line.

          •  I agree (11+ / 0-)

            X 129381092831

            He's a private citizen, and even if he signed up covertly to be put on the national stage, this was uncalled for.

            I'm tempted to HR but I'm restraining myself.

            "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

            by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:48:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Same here..... (9+ / 0-)

              ....his records did not need to be posted.

              If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention...

              by strohdecaire on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:56:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I disagree (8+ / 0-)

                He willingly stepped into the public eye. This is just like the whole brouhaha over the CBS forged documents in 2004. This guys appears to be a plant and a poorly executed one. He needs to be exposed.

                Lord Make a Way! Lord Make a Way! Make a Way For Hussein! http://nualasdaddy.typepad.com/another_overdocumented_li/

                by HarlemUSA on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:14:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You can "expose" him (6+ / 0-)

                  without printing most of his social security number and his criminal record. A list of "known residences," with just the names of towns, would have been sufficient.

                  "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

                  by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:15:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Unfortunately (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Vicky, judyneric

                    Those types of records are pretty accessible now. It's amazing how easy it is to get people's SS#. Once you have been a part of any kind of court case your person information is out there! If I was that commenter I, personally, would have XXXXX'd out the whole SS#.

                    Lord Make a Way! Lord Make a Way! Make a Way For Hussein! http://nualasdaddy.typepad.com/another_overdocumented_li/

                    by HarlemUSA on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:19:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Just because it's easy (5+ / 0-)

                      doesn't make it right. I could do a lot of unsavoury things on the internet easily, that doesn't mean I do them.

                      Like I said, if the commentor felt the need to discredit him in this way, most of that information was unnecessary to do so.

                      "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

                      by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:20:51 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  And x'd out (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      PsychoSavannah, judyneric, Kaity, scotths

                      The numbers in the addresses. No need for that. xxxx Keating way would have been fine. Same point.

                      This was over the line. I have to agree with the other posters here.

                      I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

                      by alkalinesky on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:38:29 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  "Keating Way." (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        PsychoSavannah, judyneric, scotths

                        One couldn't have made this up if one tried.

                        "It's embarrassing when you try to overthrow the government and you wind up on the best sellers list."--Abbie Hoffman

                        by ekthesy on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:45:30 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'm not against (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          zett, PsychoSavannah, judyneric, Kaity

                          The outing of the information. Indeed, it's what we do best here - scoop the trad. media. But my point is that the EXACT same information could have been conveyed with the least amount of information displayed. Think HIPPA for blog posts. The OP could have exposed the information (which is important) while x-ing out the finer details (which is irrelevant and somewhat intimidating).

                          I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

                          by alkalinesky on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:02:17 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yep. (5+ / 0-)

                            You are all correct. I should not have posted all of it, but at the same time, I should have posted all of it.

                            I should have because the guy is a tool. Also, it is all publicly gathered info.

                            But I shouldn't have because I could have posted the thrust of the matter without getting down to such deep specifics.

                            I guess I vetted the info just about as well as the McCain campaign vetted "Sam the Plumber" before they decided to use him to harm Barack Obama's campaign!

                            Here is the info with some of it redacted. Just troll rate the original out of existence.

                            Name: SAMUEL JOSEPH WURZELBACHER  
                            Date of Birth: 12/XX/1973

                            Addresses:
                            XXX SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH  
                            XX DERBYSHIRE RD, TOLEDO OH
                            XXXX WALNUT CIR APT APT-I, TOLEDO OH    
                            XXXX STEFFENS AVE, TOLEDO OH    
                            XXXX W KEATING AVE APT 150, MESA AZ
                            XXXX-X W KEATING AVE APT 592, MESA AZ
                            XXXX W ODESSY WAY, TUCSON AZ
                            XXXX CEDAR AVE UNIT B, GRAND FORKS AFB ND
                            GENERAL DELIVERY, GRAND FORKS ND    
                            XXXX DELWOOD ST, NORTH POLE AK (ALASKA!)
                            XXX OUIDA WAY APT A, NORTH POLE AK    
                            XXXX BRINT RD, SYLVANIA OH 43560-3122    
                            XXXX E STELLA RD APT 13K, TUCSON AZ 85730-1947

                            Liens and Judgments:
                                  Filing Number:   CVF0705807
                                  Filing Type:  CIVIL NEW FILING
                                  Location:  LUCAS COUNTY MUNICIPAL COURT
                                  State:  OH
                                  Original Filing Date: 3/27/2007
                                  Amount: $1,261
                                  Debtor Name: SAMUEL WURZELBACHER
                                  Debtor SSN: xxxx-xx-xxxx
                                  Debtor Address: XXX SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH        Creditor: ST CHARLES MERCY HOSPITAL

                                  Filing Number:   LN0200701803
                                  Filing Type:  STATE TAX LIEN
                                  Book/Page:  460/303
                                  Location:  LUCAS COUNTY COMMON PLEAS
                                  State:  OH
                                  Original Filing Date: 1/26/2007
                                  Amount: $1,182
                                  Debtor Name: SAMUEL J WURZELBACHER
                                  Debtor SSN: xxxx-xx-xxxx
                                  Debtor Address: XX DERBYSHIRE RD, TOLEDO OH
                                  Creditor: STATE OF OHIO

                                  Filing Number:   CV0003328FD
                                  Filing Type:  CIVIL DISMISSAL
                                  Location:  SOUTH MESA JUSTICE COURT
                                  State:  AZ
                                  Original Filing Date: 11/15/2000
                                  Debtor Name: SAMUEL WURZELBACHER
                                  Debtor SSN: xxxx-xx-xxxx
                                  Debtor Address: XXXX W KEATING AVE APT 150,
                                  Creditor: WXI MCN ACCO REAL ESTATE LTD

                                  Filing Number:   CV0003237RB
                                  Filing Type:  CIVIL DISMISSAL
                                  Location:  SOUTH MESA JUSTICE COURT
                                  State:  AZ
                                  Original Filing Date: 11/9/2000
                                  Release Date:   1/18/2001
                                  Debtor Name: SAMUEL WURZELBACHER
                                  Debtor SSN: xxxx-xx-xxxx
                                  Debtor Address: XXXX W KEATING AVE APT 150, MESA AZ
                                  Creditor: MONTGOMERY WARD CREDIT CORP

                            Property:
                                         Parcel Number - 65-62411
                                         Name Owner : WURZELBACHER, SAMUEL
                                         Property Address: - XXX SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH , LUCAS COUNTY
                                         Owner Address: 355 SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH , LUCAS COUNTY
                                         Sale Date - 08/06/2008
                                         Name of Seller : WURZELBACHER XXXX X
                                         Loan Amount - $127,281
                                         Loan Type - FEDERAL HOUSING AUTHORITY
                                       

                               
                                  Property:
                                         Parcel Number - 65-62411
                                         Name Owner : WURZELBACHER SAMUEL J
                                         Name Owner 2: WURZELBACHER XXXXXX X
                                         Property Address: - XXX SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH, LUCAS COUNTY
                                         Owner Address: XXX SHREWSBURY ST, HOLLAND OH 43528-9520, LUCAS COUNTY
                                         Total Market Value - $117,114
                                         Assessed Value - $40,990
                                         Land Value - $20,800
                                         Improvement Value - $96,314
                                         Land Size - 7,772 Square Feet
                                         Year Built - 1965
                                         Name of Seller : XXXXX XXXXX X & XXXXX X
                                         Loan Amount - $113,850
                                         Loan Type - CONVENTIONAL
                                         Lender Name - COUNTRYWIDE HM LNS INC
                                       

                            Offender information
                            Name: WURZELBACHER, SAMUEL
                            Address: AK
                            Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
                            Case Filing Date: 8/12/1993
                            Case Type: Minor Offense
                            DOB: 12/1973
                            SSN: xxxx-xx-XXXX
                            Sex: Unknown

                            Offenses
                            Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
                            Court Description: Fourth District - Fairbanks
                            Court Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
                            Court Statute: SPEEDING 74/55
                            Court Disposition Date: 8/16/1993

                            Offender information
                            Name: WURZELBACHER, SAMUEL
                            Address: AK
                            Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
                            Case Filing Date: 8/12/1993
                            Case Type: Minor Offense
                            DOB: 12/1973
                            SSN: xxxx-xx-XXXX
                            Sex: Unknown

                            Offenses
                            Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
                            Court Description: Fourth District - Fairbanks
                            Court Case Number: 4FA-93-T709107
                            Court Statute: SPEEDING 74/55
                            Court Disposition Date: 8/16/1993

                            Source:  Sammy The Plumber Info

                            You go to war not with the reasons you have, but with the reasons you might want or wish to have. - The Republican Credo

                            by judyneric on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:50:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Perfect. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PsychoSavannah

                            This I will uprate.

                            Thank you.

                            I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

                            by alkalinesky on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:55:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Crap. (5+ / 0-)

                  He "appears" to be a poorly executed plant so he must be exposed?  If he is a plant (so what?), printing that stuff is supposed to do what? If he's not a plant, it's still okay, because he "appeared" to be one?

                  Publishing those records isn't exposing whether he's a plant.  All publishing those records does is to say that we're as silly as the Freepers and Malkinistas.  

            •  I'm not restraing myself. (6+ / 0-)

              Do we need to go check out his cabinet tops now?  This stuff is every bit as lame as Malkin.

              •  I was jumped all over last week (4+ / 0-)

                for HRing someone who said something sexist about Palin, so I've been wary to give them out since then. Not that I think I was wrong, but it's not worth the bullshit when two or three people decide YOU'RE THE MOST UNREASONABLE PERSON EVER and then you have to defend yourself.

                "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

                by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:16:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know. (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sfgb, zett, PsychoSavannah, Kaity, alkalinesky

                  But I've found that I don't have to defend myself from every bullshit comment and HR that comes my way, and I'm much happier now.  Posting all that stuff, even if it's public record, is stupid.  When we do that crap, we act just like reichtards, and when we justify it, our justifications sound just like theirs.  

                  Frankly, I don't care whether Joe was a plant.  If he was, Obama handled it correctly when they first talked, by dealing with the issues.  Obama handled it well last night, when he dealt with the issues.  If Joe was a plant, so what?  It doesn't change our stance on the issues, and it doesn't change the fact that the Reichtards don't like it.  There's not enough substance to Joe, or to his objections to Obama, for it to matter.  

                  On the other hand, turning whether Joe is or isn't a plant just lengthens the Joe newscycle.  Posting Joe's personal info is not only tawdry, it's an almost guaranteed way to gin up sympathy for poor ole Joe.

                  You'd think that people would think.

            •  This is all public information (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              judyneric

              I don't see any problem with posting public information. There may be valid arguments to be made about this kind of information being public in the first place, but as long as it is public, I don't see any point in pretending it isn't there.

              •  Did you have a problem with it (0+ / 0-)

                when it was Graeme Frost's family that was having their private lives exposed?  This guy had Obama come to his yard, and he asked Obama a question.  Graeme Frost gave the Democrat's weekly address on nationwide radio.  Yet the people who dug into his family's personal information were attacked without mercy (and rightfully so).

                Whether this guy was a plant or not (don't see how he could be, as he was at his house when Obama came a'-callin') is of little to no relevance.  It could have been a completely hypothetical question, and not matter.  What matters is Obama's answer.

                Conservative since 1992. Open-minded since birth.

                by ShowMe on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 02:20:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  hardly. Tis available for everyone (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Vicky, judyneric, lgcap

            about everyone.
            public records are just that. Public.
            get used to it. I guarantee someone has searched you out.

            What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

            by agnostic on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:23:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have to disagree (9+ / 0-)

              This is no different than what the AP did to Droogie. It's not ok, not even for people that we highly disagree with. All of the numerical information in that post could have been x'd out with the exact same point made. This is really looking like intimidation. How easy is it for anyone now to harass this guy, in a personal way? We should not do things we ourselves would not want done to us. This is over the line.

              I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

              by alkalinesky on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:40:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  He used to live in North Pole, Alaska??? (13+ / 0-)

          AND on Keating Avenue in Arizona??

        •  Keating Ave in Mesa AZ ? (9+ / 0-)

          Is it time to put on my tinfoil hat?

          And remember: If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own. - Scoop Nisker, the Last News Show

          by North Madison on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:43:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So this pretty much confirms (6+ / 0-)

          Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds. Buddha

          by zenbowl on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:46:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't see any proof yet (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            judyneric

            But I expect we'll know by the end of the day. Too many people are trying to figure out whether they are father-son or close cousins or distant cousins.

            And remember: If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own. - Scoop Nisker, the Last News Show

            by North Madison on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:20:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  this is out of line. (8+ / 0-)

          incredibly so.

          "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

          by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:52:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't we have (13+ / 0-)

          A pretty strict policy against this kind of thing? You could have made the same point and blocked out a LOT of that information. This is not ok to me.

          I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

          by alkalinesky on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:54:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've reported the comment in lieu of HRing it. nt (4+ / 0-)

            "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

            by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:59:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, no no no no no no no! NO!!! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Vicky, judyneric

              Look, in my work, I get the same PUBLIC information in most of my cases. It is easily accessible by
              a) a trip to the courthouse.
              b) a call to the court clerk
              c) going online to LEGAL public information access sites.

              everything there is a public document. And the Supreme Court has said that stuff is not protected. repeatedly.

              What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

              by agnostic on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:27:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It doesn't matter if it's "protected" (9+ / 0-)

                it still is innappropriate for this poster to put it up on a site read by thousands of people, the vast vast majority of whom could not simply walk to this guy's town clerk office and get this information.

                I'm not talking about what's legal, I'm talking about what's ethical.

                "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

                by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:30:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I can accept your argument, but for one thing (6+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  thm, ekthesy, Vicky, judyneric, chigh, North Madison

                  our world has changed. The days of privacy in yesteryear are no longer. To think that they are is foolhardy.

                  Except for adoption, child custody, and some other records, ALL COURT RECORDS are public records. Ergo, they are available to anyone, anytime, anyplace. Every state has expungement proceedings available, so if he really cared about his speeding and other violations, he could have easily had them cleared off the books. and off the computer. But he did not.

                  the fact that information is not easily available does not change the fact that a public record is a public record. My local paper still publishes each arrest and conviction for local folks. Every issue. Drunk driving, domestic abuse and battery, shop-lifting. Right there on page three. Is that wrong? Is that bad? I don't think so, because as a lawyer, I refuse to beat my partner, while driving drunk as I attempt to steal something from a store.

                  The fact that we have a larger readership does not change the "public" nature of this data, nor the data published on Page 3 of my paper. (hell, they publish my LTTEs routinely, and supported my campaign for office, so I have to agree with them, I guess).

                  This guy was a plant. That much was clear. What is not clear is whether the MSM will lift a finger to dig out PUBLIC DATA like you and I can do easily.

                  So far, they have been lazy, and once again, we scooped them. I think that is a good thing.

                  What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

                  by agnostic on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:37:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you and i aren't arguing about the same thing. (7+ / 0-)

                    you seem to be reasonable, so i'm not getting heated about this.

                    my point is this: no matter how "the game has changed," no matter how easy it is to get this information, no matter how angry we might be at the TM, no matter how far up McCain's ass this guy might be, this is unethical.

                    there are plenty of ways to discredit him without posting this, or without posting the majority of this information. i don't want BO going on the air tonight and screaming "OMG THOSE LIBERAL ASSHOLES AT DAILYKOS POSTED THIS POOR INNOCENT GUYS PERSONAL INFORMATION" because we desired to "scoop" the MSM.

                    In short? It's just not. cool.

                    "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

                    by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:45:59 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you make a very IMPORTANT point, (5+ / 0-)

                      and frankly, off the record, I completely agree about the ethics of the situation.

                      I wonder how I would have reacted to the lamp-lighters' union strike in New York (a very dangerous and expensive profession) after Tom Edison turned on his new-fangled electric lamps. All those workers, all the families, all the job security and income - gone with a flip of a switch. The point is, their world changed, and so has ours. I agree, some changes are NOT for the better.

                      On the other hand, when we have MSM under corporate control, swallowing bullshit whole and without any investigation or review, then it becomes necessary to use LEGAL tools for appropriate purposes. And outing a liar, a fake, a product placement for the GOP is perfectly appropriate and ethical.

                      What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

                      by agnostic on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:54:08 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  There's no scoop here. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sfgb, Kaity

                    It's just info about some guy who may or may not have been a plant.  This isn't journalism, it's low-level classless harassment, the kind that Michelle Malkin and her buddies are so good at.  You want to play in that crowd, by those rules, fine.  

                    It stinks.  

                    •  au contraire (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      judyneric

                      this is precisely how that witch, Anne Coulterguist, was caught breaking federal law by registering twice for the last election.

                      What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

                      by agnostic on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:08:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh? There's a violation of the law here? (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't recall tons of Coulter's personal information being published on the web then.  This is nothing but childish harassment on the order of the Michelle Malkin brigades.  

                        It doesn't make Joe look bad, it makes us look like idiots.

              •  There's a saying about that (5+ / 0-)

                Something along the lines of being legal, but not right.

            •  Well now (0+ / 0-)

              The addresses and info are on the FP. I guess we were wrong about that ethical thing.

              This feels icky. I do not like it.

              I still root for the dreamer. I thank God for the dreamer ~ Mos Def, Lifetime

              by alkalinesky on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:18:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I have to hide this. (6+ / 0-)

          It is way out of line to post so much personal info about anyone on a public site.

          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

          by missLotus on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:15:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you know what, i've changed my mind (5+ / 0-)

            i'm joining you to up the ratio.

            "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

            by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:19:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  NONE OF THAT IS PRIVATE (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fresburger, Vicky, judyneric

            that is your standard public disclosure, with one of several search engines, some free, some for a low cost.

            This is PUBLIC INFORMATION, even if it can be embarrassing.

            What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

            by agnostic on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:25:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  did anyone notice that at the end of the post (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            judyneric

            of Joe's info, there is a website listed.  DK is not the ONLY place this info is available.  We live in a world where there is no privacy anymore.  Get used to it.  You don't have to like it, but you should acknowledge it.  And, if you go on t.v. talking about presidential candidates during a presidential election year, then you'd better expect that people are going to wonder who you are, and what your story is.  If Joe did not want to be in the public eye, then he should have kept his mouth shut when the media called.  Instead, he decided to toe the Republican line, with NO intellect.  He's got a record.  Nobody's fault but his own.

            Go to www.webofdeception.com and demand they take down the info.  Then go to the courthouses and demand they remove Joe's name from their books.  Then wipe him off of the MSM websites...

            'Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.' - Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762 -8.0/-5.9

            by Nyaa on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:54:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I don't have the rights to HR... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sfgb, judyneric, Kaity, alkalinesky

          but I would if I could.  Even if he's a plant for McCain, I'd still argue that putting this amount of personal information about anyone who's not running for office should be off-limits.  

        •  Way out of line (7+ / 0-)

          I don't care what this guy did, this post is beyond the bounds.

          I don't accept this kind of behavior from wingnuts on either side.  It's uncivilized.

          I don't care if he has put himself in the public eye, you don't go throwing people's home addresses and private info up on the web.  This guy probably has a family and kids.

          •  Medical records on line (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            judyneric

            is how McCain said he would lower medical costs. My take is since privacy is of no issue to these nutz and according to Obama on his votes too, post it all until this reverses course. Second.

            Alaska roots? AIP perhaps? Looks and sounds like a Todd Palin chum. Warning...if you want to be stupid enough to be a ruse for any party, "burn baby burn". Question to Joe...ever vote for a Democrat in your life? The guy is a chump...and given I work in his proximat field and also have a college degree, I would rip his ass for giving his entire industry a black eye. We don't lie. Some of us have jobs where people's lives are on the line for cutting corners and lying...I would not trust his work, nor his integrity that he needs to do his work.

          •  Ouch. (0+ / 0-)

            come on, i don't know about uncivilized....   but i did ask for the original comment to be troll rated to invisibility.

            there are two sides to the argument over whether that much info should have been posted.

            frankly, i agree with both sides.

            You go to war not with the reasons you have, but with the reasons you might want or wish to have. - The Republican Credo

            by judyneric on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:59:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Sex unknown? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          judyneric

          Alaska connection; Arizona connection. Keating Ave. Hmmm.

          McCain/Palin: When two negatives DON'T make a positve.

          by forever blue on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:34:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So a Republican took out a FHA mortgage (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vicky, judyneric, chigh, Four of Nine, lgcap

          and he's using that subprime mortgagee Countrywide.  Tsk, tsk... and Joe's dad, Richard, lives in Key Largo -- where the average house price is $700,000. So, if Pops is so well-off, why is his offspring turning to subprime mortgagees and the government in order to buy a house?  Isn't that kind of "socialist?"

          Joe might not be able to buy that plumbing business.  I heard yesterday that credit limits are being seriously lowered or denied to people who have mortgages with Countrywide.

          Countrywide has now been labeled a deadbeat and if you have been associated with them, then the creditors are applying that label to you too.

          <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

          by bronte17 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:35:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  hahahahahahahaha (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vicky

          That's AWESOME...that you found all that out! Sucks to be "Plumber Joe" and his new found "celebrity" ...maybe he has some outstanding peternity tets or child support that people can track him down for....

          This is great!

          •  schaudenfreude (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Vicky, alkalinesky

            is fun but ugly.

            "Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be." -Paul Waldman

            by Kaity on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:06:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  He didn't ask for this (0+ / 0-)

            Obama showed up one day in his yard and he asked Obama a question.  Obama gave an answer that was, let's say, insightful.  If McCain showed up on your doorstep and asked a question of you, and McCain's answer was, let's say, insightful, and all of a sudden, you were being attacked across the internet for asking a question...what would your take be?

            Or better yet, let's stop with the hypotheticals and ask a real question.  When Graeme Frost gave the Democrat's weekly response to Bush's address in 2007 regarding SCHIP, people like Michelle Malkin and Rush Limbaugh dug into the personal (but public) information of his family.  Did you think that was fair?  Did you think that was "AWESOME"?  Or did you think that was below the belt?  Because I can point out one thing-Graeme Frost and his family did a lot more to push themselves into the public eye than this guy.  He gave a political speech.  This guy asked a question in his own yard.  And yet, when the far right found out that family's information, they were excoriated (rightly so).

            So, my question is, do you agree with this kind of action and activity at all times, or only when it helps you?

            Conservative since 1992. Open-minded since birth.

            by ShowMe on Fri Oct 17, 2008 at 02:30:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  out of line (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          judyneric, alkalinesky, Nada Lemming

          good info, but i have to vote to hide on this one.

          you should have summarized the salient info here, instead of posting all the details.  something like, "i looked samuel joseph wurzelbacher up on blahblah.com, found him in holland, OH. he's previously live in north pole, AK and on keating avenue in mesa, AZ. he has an unpaid hospital bill and state taxes from 2007...(etc.)"

          we don't out people, or enable harassment of individuals here, even if they are wingnut stooges.

          l'audace! l'audace! toujours l'audace!

          by zeke L on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:21:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's called JOURNALISM (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Vicky, judyneric

            A casual look at a newspaper story of any repute would be just as inquisitive, indeed, this information speaks to authenticity.  I'm obviously in the minority here, but given the choice, I'll choose more information over less, every time around.

            •  no, it's not (0+ / 0-)

              do the reporters in your town post not just names, but home addresses, partial SS#'s and tax liens on everyone they mention in a story?

              not where i live.

              l'audace! l'audace! toujours l'audace!

              by zeke L on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:12:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Perhaps (0+ / 0-)

                some of that information is withheld in the context of how the story is constructed and presented to the public.  Make no mistake however that information is very much a part of the report and is archived accordingly for future reference.  It's demanded by the editor and is typically available upon request.

                News organizations that have established records of reliably honest reporting have their good name to rely on.  Otherwise anonymous posters, sadly, do not have that luxury.  There wasn't anything posted that's non-factual. I don't see a problem.

        •  GOP tactics? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          alkalinesky

          This would be something out of a GOP playbook.  No need for that.

      •  You need to watch his interview that just (23+ / 0-)

        ran live on MSNBC - the guy is a wingnut - complete with some incoherent complaint about Jimmy Carter.

        •  No doubt the guy has been a lifelong conservative (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sfgb

          However, there are plenty of people like that considering voting for Obama, or who are at least uncertain enough about McCain that they are hoping Obama will say something they disagree with so they can be convinced NOT to for Obama and revert to their comfort zone.  

          I got the sense from the videos I saw that this guy was in the latter group.

          I would like to see the video you're talking about as well.

          The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

          by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:36:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Um - he was quoted this morning as having (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            redwagon, sfgb, judyneric

            said that McCain "got it right" last night and again his comments today on MSNBC were very much in line with the McCain campaign.  You really need to watch the MSNBC interview - any doubts you may have will be pretty much eliminated.

            •  Is it on video anywhere? (0+ / 0-)

              I'd like to see it.

              The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

              by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:29:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am hoping someone captured it and (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sfgb, ShadowSD

                will eventually post it in its entirety because there was a lot there.

                Alex Witt was anchoring and it was really funny (in a dark sort of way) because the lower-third said "Joe says he doesn't speak for everyman" (or something like that and Witt came in to take over thinking that the interview was over by saying, "Well, there you have it.  Joe the Plummer speaking for real people." (also paraphrased).  She is a piece of work imo.

              •  This is the edited down version which (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                judyneric, ShadowSD

                includes the social security comments and the war comments, but excludes a whole lot of other stuff.

                http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

                I haven't found it in its entirety - hopefully someone captured it all and will post.

                •  That video was posted below and I saw it (0+ / 0-)

                  My thoughts posted here.

                  The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

                  by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:03:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  One part that is edited out is (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ShadowSD

                    his off-handed comment about his having talked with the McCain campaign.

                    Here's what I suspect happened - he called the McCain campaign right after he was taped asking questions of Obama and volunteered.

                    He offered a fair amount of biographical information including the fact that he had returned to Ohio six years ago after living in "LA" clarifying that that refers to "lower Alabama".

                    Really, see the whole thing if you can.  I believe that the edits - as is often the case - soften him greatly.

                    •  I'll look for it (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      inclusiveheart

                      But I'm glad you agree that he did not approach Obama as a plant for the McCain campaign; that's a conclusion that doesn't seem to add up, and too many are willing to believe it so quickly.

                      The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

                      by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:23:38 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Honestly, I don't quite know what (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        judyneric, ShadowSD

                        I think at the moment.  I do find the guy to be pretty suspicious primarily because McCain was so clearly confident about using him throughout the debate last night.

                        I worked at the PR firm that helped curry the sympathy for the Kuwaitis in the run up to the first Gulf War.  I didn't know it at the time, but it was later exposed by 60 Minutes that our star witness to the brutality of the Iraqi Army was not even in the country when Saddam invaded and was as it happens a princess in the Kuwaiti royal family.  The guy who led that account was a man that I had had enormous respect for - he died before I was ever able to ask him if he knew that she was lying - since he is dead and I liked him very much I'd prefer to think he was just as misled as the rest of us were - but you never know.  When people have all of the strength and resources of the federal government at their finger tips, there's a lot that you can do to orchestrate and fabricate stories that advance your goals.

                        •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          inclusiveheart

                          It just seems illogical that they would make such an effort to make the plant believable when they won't do the same for their own candidates.  It just doesn't make sense.

                          The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

                          by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:24:08 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  They are clearly not a particularly bright bunch. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ShadowSD

                            Look at the Palin pick - whether you believe the story that she wasn't vetted or you are like me and believe they simply thought they could get away with their deceptions - the fact that they chose to risk it all on her and how they have handled her along the way shows some mega "stupid" if you ask me.

                          •  Sure, my point exactly - that kind of stupid (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            inclusiveheart

                            isn't compatible with the degree of competence required for that guy to be a plant.

                            How come they briefed him better than Palin?  What precedent is there for such selective and intermittent  competence by a campaign?

                            The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

                            by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:34:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, I've always said that the Bushies (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ShadowSD

                            were extremely competent where it came to message and media management on a certain level.  If all it took to govern was showing up at press conferences, they'd get high marks.  

                            As to your questions about his level of skill vs. Palin's level of skill, I get the impression that they grossly over estimated how quick on the uptake and how "smart" Palin really is.

                            That first weekend after she was named there was a comment in one of the articles from the Alaska papers from a friend of hers about how talented Palin is, but how her friend wondered how well Palin might do playing the second rather than as the first.  As time has worn on and we've seen more of her, I've wondered if her problem with playing second string has as much to do with her inability to fully comprehend the world around her therefore necessitating her being the first chair so that she can set the agenda and only address those things she does kind of understand.

                            The short parallel to what I said above it is like Tom Brokaw's problem saying certain words and how he handles it - he only writes scripts for himself that exclude the words he can't say without a problem.

                            Palin of course having agreed to being on the national stage doesn't have the luxury of ignoring critical issues that she doesn't understand or know anything about - and McCain's team is probably frustrated at her clear inability to learn quickly as they were promised she would.

        •  i don't care how many interviews (5+ / 0-)

          he does, as long as he's presented to viewers as teh registered Repubican that he is.

      •  falme (18+ / 0-)

        Nice try, but as we learn more and more, the charge that he was a plant for McCain seems clearer and clearer. And his angry responses on MSNBC (waiting for video) -- plus his demeanor during Obama's encounter with him earlier in the week -- were indicative of his disdain for Obama.

        NFTT Progressively supporting the troops

        by Timroff on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:31:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would have to see the video you're referring to (0+ / 0-)

          The encounter earlier in the week was not what I would describe as disdainful; the guy seemed to at least be taking in Obama's argument, albeit with some skepticism.

          This is way too elaborate for the McCain campaign to stage, IMO; I am willing to say otherwise if the evidence suggests it, but I haven't seen that evidence yet.  I can absolutely believe they'd plant somebody on the day of the debates, but this guy is too perfect an approximation of the voters Obama has been poaching from McCain in traditionally red states; if this guy is a plant, he's better prepped that their VP candidate is, if not their Presidential candidate.  It exceeds what we know about the McCain's campaign competence.

          The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

          by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:41:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here's the video (6+ / 0-)

            maybe not angry, but clearly he's fully within the fold of the right wingnutosphere.

            and here's msnbc's introduction of Joe to the public

            NFTT Progressively supporting the troops

            by Timroff on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:52:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Joe hates having Social Security (6+ / 0-)

              " forced" on him. Thats a less than popular viewpoint.
                 Reminds me of an old friend of my Dad's, who worked for a small-town gas co. for 30 years and retired with a 35 dollar watch.
                 He told me one day that he hated unions.

            •  Very conservative guy, no doubt about it (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Vicky, Eddie L

              FOX News Watcher who was raised conservative all his life.

              But a real voter, NOT a McCain campaign plant; I'm surprised people are not a better judge of character.

              The fact that a guy like this (who I could tell from his first interaction with Obama was economically conservative, and is also apparently hawkish on foreign policy from this video) is interested enough in Obama to ask him a question with a somewhat open mind is awesome, and indicative of what is going on around the country among many lifelong conservatives who are considering voting for a Democratic President for the first time ever.  

              If the McCain campaign intended to plant someone, would they have wanted to draw attention to that phenomenon of conservatives open to Obama, something that makes Obama look good and McCain look foolish?  Do they want to highlight the fact that they are losing ground among voters and states they thought would be safe in their column, a truth they have tried to draw attention away from at every turn?  Would they do all that anyway, despite the staggering illogic of such actions, and yet be competent enough to quickly train this very believable guy better than they've trained their own candidates?  It just doesn't add up.

              The all purpose reference for every Obama surrogate and supporter

              by ShadowSD on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:28:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  it's pretty clear from watching the video (0+ / 0-)

              That "joe" is in now way, shape or form an undecided voter.  He clearly supports the Bush administration policy to invade Iraq - he doesn't care about WMB, we brought those people freedom, poor people suck, Social Security should be privatized... The fact that the MSM is falling all over themselves to interview him, that's the joke!

              'Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.' - Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762 -8.0/-5.9

              by Nyaa on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:10:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I guess (8+ / 0-)

        you have never heard the term....

        RINGER....

        or try this

        PAID SHILL

      •  Diary: Joe the Fibber (14+ / 0-)

        JCindDe has a very good diary on this, linking to another video where he is speaking to the local media. Some quotes:

        "My mind's been made up for a long time, to be honest with you."
        "McCain...was a real American hero...a pretty solid individual..."
        "I want to see this country remain a democracy and not a socialist society

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        He sure wasn´t going to say anything nice about Obama.

        Love all the people !

        by Mariken on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:37:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Registered Republican (20+ / 0-)

        But the Toledo Blade reports that he appears to be a registered Republican, and a primary voter at that:

        Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber’s, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

        Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database.

        Ben Smith

        "What we've seen the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on an economic philosophy that has completely failed." -- Barack Obama

        by TomP on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:38:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  he's ripped on obama elsewhere (6+ / 0-)

        he also voted in the GOP primary this year in ohio, which almost certainly means he voted for mike huckabee or john mccain.

        when he first registered in 1992 it was as a member of the natural law party, which is pretty crazy right-wing.

        he also said he was disappointed when he learned at age 18 that he'd been born in toledo because that meant he was a "yankee."

        and he also said he opposed social security, and that he wanted to shut down our borders.

    •  People need to check out the interview with (29+ / 0-)

      Joe the Plummer that just ran live on MSNBC a few minutes ago - he mentioned having a conversation with the McCain campaign and showed himself to be a certifiable wingnut - going so far as to complain about "Carter writing a letter to Obama on tax payer dollars" whatever that was about (?).  He also said that he doesn't believe in Social Security.  And he said that he thinks that going into Iraq is a great thing.  There's more where all that came from too... it was a fairly long interview.

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