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  •  Eorope may well get their Summitt (15+ / 0-)

    But ONLY if The President Elect(or his representatives) is at the table will what comes out of that summitt have any meaning.

    George W Bush may well be President until Jan 20 but the Europeons are snart enough to know if it is W who negotiates anything our new President and our country won't be bound by it

    http://dumpjoe.com/

    by ctkeith on Sun Oct 19, 2008 at 06:31:33 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The Europeans are smart enough to know... (35+ / 0-)

      ... that the interregnum between administrations is precisely the time to exert their power to the maximum in such a summit.  They've been tired of chafing under the American boot for decades now, and people like Sarkozy clearly understand that now, with an economic crisis and a dead-duck American president, is their chance to change that.

      Can't blame them a bit.  But I agree, president-elect Barack Obama's people should be at that summit as well.  He may not be president yet, but nothing America signs on to should be done without his input and approval.  Obama can't wait, as FDR did, until his inauguration to assume responsibility.  He's got to fill the vacuum of leadership starting November 5th, and basically push George Bush aside when it comes to policy-making.

      I can't expect to live in a democracy if I'm not prepared to do the work of being a citizen.

      by Dallasdoc on Sun Oct 19, 2008 at 09:06:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nope. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Foxwizard, Hillblogger

        Obama should stay away until he assumes office.

        There's great strategic advange in having Bush go first.

        Jeesh, when will Dems learn how to negotiate?

        Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

        by koNko on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:24:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sarkozy can suck wind until... (0+ / 0-)

          Obama is sworn in...if Obama wins, which I hope he does.

          Today, 10/18/08, 4185 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied, how soon before your family pays the price for that?

          by boilerman10 on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 03:17:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're being obtuse -- first of summit to (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            koNko

            be held immediately after US election with Bush but succeeding summits will be held with a President Obama.

            •  First post of the day and coffee not ready (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              koNko, eyesonly, sparxy

              obtuse reaction?  Please forgive me.

              I don't trust Bush to do anything beyond try to kneecap both Obama due to politics, and America due to rejection.

              Bush must be contained.

              Europe on the other hand should tread lightly.  One untalked about issue in this campaign season is the feeling that America has been shafted with Bush's ruinous trade and exchange policies.  There is a festering nationalism that I would advise the Europeans not to inflame.

              Today, 10/18/08, 4185 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied, how soon before your family pays the price for that?

              by boilerman10 on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 04:47:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the world has to move on and start addressing (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                koNko

                the crises triggered in great measure by the United States -- Obama knows that this has to be done.

                So, your bellicose take

                "There is a festering nationalism that I would advise the Europeans not to inflame."

                is totally unwarranted.

                •  I disagree. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  koNko

                  Perhaps the word is "being diplomatic" in the approach.

                  A return to Bretton Woods is a good idea.  But Sarkozy trying to bulldoze this is not going to work well.  

                  Let us proceed, but let it be with care.

                  Today, 10/18/08, 4185 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied, how soon before your family pays the price for that?

                  by boilerman10 on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 05:03:21 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  After Bush-buldosed catastrophe, you really (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    koNko

                    believe that Sarkozy is "bulldozing" his way towards finding solutions to resolving the US induced financial crises? You gotta be kidding.

                    If the proposed summits towards reforms don't work it won't be because of Sarkozy -- it would be because there's bad faith somewhere.

                    Sarkozy is NOT bulldozing his way. Someone has to take the lead in formulating reforms ASAP to avoid repeating the same mistakes and to avoid another world great depression. Bush has absolutely no credibility left to even jumpstart this. Obviously, there is no guarantee that the initiative will be successful but it's time something were done to address the causes.

                    And if you were reading the news, you'll find that a SERIES OF SUMMITS will be held -- not just one -- to find solutions... so your fear that

                    ... Sarkozy (is) trying to bulldoze this is not going to work well.

                    is totally unfounded.

                    There's a saying: Don't cut off your nose just to spite your face.

                  •  House on Fire. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hillblogger

                    The start of these talks is symbolic but very necessary to restore confidance in global credit markets. There is only so much money the world can throw at this problem.  Believe it or not, the world does not rotate on the axis of US electroral politics.

                    I think your concern is overblown and politically biased.

                    Overblown, because this meeting will not lead to substantial binding agreements, but a declaration of purpose to stand together and work through a process that will take years, and hopefully (for the US and the world) one guided by Democrats on the US side.

                    Let me give you a hypothetical: McCain wins, has a heat attack soon afterward, and you are holding the phone for Plain.

                    Happy?

                    Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

                    by koNko on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 07:26:20 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Agree. Excellent synopsis (0+ / 0-)

                      Overblown, because this meeting will not lead to substantial binding agreements, but a declaration of purpose to stand together and work through a process that will take years, and hopefully (for the US and the world) one guided by Democrats on the US side.

              •  They are in no mood to wait. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hillblogger

                And there is more than a little paypack in the dictatorial tone of Sarkozy, which is for European consumption.

                To be frank, this is a time for the US to eat a little humble pie and making Bush take the first bite will help Obama.

                I assure you that people outside the USA (including me) strongly support Obama because he is exactly the prescription to the ills created by Bush, an intellegent leader with an ability to listen and negotiate.

                Your warning to Europeans to tread lightly would be better directed to Americans who still seem to have difficulty treating others as equals. The world does not demand that the US come groveling; we understand there are numerous, complex issues such as trade where much work needs to be done, but that is only accomplished by dialogue and engagement, not by bullying.

                I think Obama appreciates the facts of the multi-polar world we live in. I trust he will help explain that in the months to come to many Americans that don't quite get it.

                Sarkozy is doing the US a favor by demanding it come to the table in an emergency situation, and giving the US a lot of face by agreeing the US host the event rather than demanding Bush come to a meeting in the Hague (small chance).

                You are correct to say the rising tide of nationalism should be a concern; it is definately mine when I ready self-professed liberals spouting Cold War xenophbia on this site.  

                The cure is not a world that continues to kowtow to the US every time it gets it's feelings hurt by situations of it's own making.  The cure is to treat the US as an equal and as an adult, crazy as that might bsound at this point.

                Somtimes you let kids cry themselves to sleep. Builds moral character. They love you and respect you in the morning.

                Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

                by koNko on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 07:18:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Not strategic advantage but it's a tactical (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          koNko

          move that can only be good for him!

          •  Both. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hillblogger

            Tactical, because it puts Republican stink on the process, which can provide Dems moral leverage that will be needed later to deal with the partisian politics Republicans will use as a means to poison the well and construct an opposition platform. Dems will surely be blamed for fixing the disaster created by Republican excess.

            Strategy, because it commits the US to the process sooner to help control the damage and puts the US in a leading role.

            In my fantasy world, Sarkozy demands Bush attend a meeting in The Hague, a suitably international venue, but methinks Sarkozy let practical necesseity get the better of him. I'm sure the thought crossed his mind to demand Bush report to Europe, that would be a gaurenteed second term for Mr. S.

            Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

            by koNko on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 07:36:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Like you, I would like Mr Bush to be "invited" to (0+ / 0-)

              The Hague but Mr Sarkozy cannot do that -- if an "invitation" has to be issued, it must come from the tribunal in The Hague which is independent.

              Moreover (not that it would matter in the political scheme of things, i.e. inviting Mr Bush) Mr Sarkozy's term as EU Commission prez ends at the end of the year. Not much time to build a case even if there was an intention to do it.

              Finally, everyone is focused on trying to find ways and means to avert a potentially global economic catastrophe.

    •  i think you may be missing the point (14+ / 0-)

      The times have already changed, regardless of who's President, because the United States is not more powerful than the rest of the planet.

      Consent of the US is no longer needed for the economic summit to reach decisions and take actions.

      Nemo iudex in sua causa. -5.88,-7.90

      by Jurassic Game Warden on Sun Oct 19, 2008 at 11:58:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right! There will be a series of summits - (0+ / 0-)

        the first one will be held with incumbent albeit lame duck US prez after Nov 4 election and will be held in the US...

        Le premier de ces sommets «se tiendra aux États-Unis, peu après les élections américaines» du 4 novembre, précise ce communiqué. Cette rencontre au niveau des chefs de gouvernement visera à «examiner les progrès enregistrés pour faire face à la crise actuelle et à rechercher un accord sur les principes des réformes nécessaires pour éviter que se reproduise une telle crise», poursuit le texte. «Les sommets suivants se pencheront sur la mise en œuvre des mesures précises devant être prises pour concrétiser ces principes», lit-on encore.

        The first of these summits "will be held in the United States, immediately after the US elections on 4 November" according to the press release (issued jointly by US Sec of Treas Henry Paulson, his French counterpart Christine Lagarde and Condoleezza Rice."

        The meeting will be held among the heads of states and will examine the progress that will have been made in adressing the financial crisis and to agree on the principles of reforms required to prevent the occurrence of said crisis again.

        The press release also said,  "Succeeding summits will deal with the formulation of a set of measures to concretise these principles."

        (Translation mine.)

        http://www.lefigaro.fr/...

      •  Probably true. The US owes so much to so many, (2+ / 0-)

        and the cause of this crisis is so fundamentally stupid (and solely caused by the US), that this may well turn out to be a kind of Versailles, where the other nations design a system that isolates and punishes the US, like France and Britain did with Germany at the end of WWI.

        And mark this, if Bush makes an agreement the world will hold the new president to it, at risk of further aleinating the US from the world.

        This could, in fact, be the first act in the US becoming a 21st century "Sick Man", as the Ottoman Empire was at the dawn of the 20th.

        •  The US can still recover from its very tarnished (0+ / 0-)

          reputation if it can restore confidence and a president-elect Obama is key.

          and the cause of this crisis is so fundamentally stupid

          Agree!

          (and solely caused by the US),

          Not quite! All global financial institutions fed the Wall Street greed.

        •  There are some significant differences... (0+ / 0-)

          "...this may well turn out to be a kind of Versailles, where the other nations design a system that isolates and punishes the US, like France and Britain did with Germany at the end of WWI."

          First, the difference is that Germany was a militarily defeated country at Versailles. The US is not - it has massive amounts of weapons and no one can be completely sure about Bush's willingness to use them.

          Second, though the US is economically hampered, it still has enormous economica strength and is the largest market in the world.

          It might not be wise to overly antagonize a country with these qualities.

          "...Reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." Richard Feynman

          by QuestionAuthority on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 09:25:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  how long do you think (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Foxwizard, Hillblogger

            the US is going to continue to be the largest market in the world?

            Also, it's unknown how much economic strength the US currently has. You don't know, I don't know, the US government doesn't know and the rest of the G8 doesn't know.

            Some circumstantial evidence does exist, however: the size of the national debt ceiling and the proportion of GDP that is due in fact to creative accounting.

            I'm not willing to go out on a limb and proclaim the United States economically strong. They'll have to prove it. Proving it to me is largely irrelevant, but proving it to the rest of the world is anything but irrelevant.

            Nemo iudex in sua causa. -5.88,-7.90

            by Jurassic Game Warden on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:37:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed. The economic strength of the US (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jurassic Game Warden

              lies, at the moment, largely in the fact the dollar is the reserve currency, and the consumption habits of Americans powers the economies of the world.

              Once Americans realize how deeply in debt they are, become unemployed, just plain scared at losing their retirement money, or even come to their senses consumption will have to fall.

              In other words, our strength at the moment is in the fact that we purchase a lot. Once we have to stop buying, that strength disappears; and since we don't make anything anymore, a feedback cycle will emerge: less buying leads to high unemployment which leads to less buying. The world will want to collect on what we owe.

              American military strength will mean little in the absence of American economic strength. And how long, short of firing nukes, could our military really hold out against an alignment of nations intent on collecting what we owe them?

              And note I didn't say it would be Versailles; it will be like Versailles in that our creditors will dictate the terms and we will accept them because there is no alternative.

              That is what will make us the sick man, and put us on the path of the Ottomans. IF (big if here) a President Obama is unable to undo the damage, get us productive, lower the debt and put us on a path to a (second term) balanced budget. We'll also need to reverse the foreign trade deficit we've been building up since 1975 at a pretty hefty pace.

        •  fall of the Ottoman Empire (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hillblogger

          Excellent analogy.

          Looking back on history, you have to ask yourself why they ever thought they could even pull it off.

          Nemo iudex in sua causa. -5.88,-7.90

          by Jurassic Game Warden on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:29:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sarkozy has taken the lead it seems, in the intl (0+ / 0-)

        fight for global reforms

        En revanche, le président américain, qui sera la puissance invitante du premier sommet, très certainement à New York, a refusé qu'il se tienne sous la houlette de l'ONU, comme le proposait Ban Ki-moon. Surtout, des divergences de fond sur l'ampleur des réformes devront être surmontées. «Il est essentiel que nous préservions les fondements du capitalisme financier», a dit George W. Bush, samedi. Certes, lui a répondu Nicolas Sarkozy, «mais on ne peut pas non plus continuer avec les mêmes causes qui produiront les mêmes effets».

        Meanwhile, the US president, who will be hosting the first summit which will most likely be held in New York, refused that it be held under the auspices of the UN. Diverging opinions on the magnitude of reforms are are expected.

        "It is essential to preserve the foundations of financial capitalism," Pres Bush said on Saturday. "Certainly, but we also cannot continue with the same causes which are bound to produce the same effects" Nicolas Sarkozy riposted.

        (Amateur translation mine.)

        http://www.lefigaro.fr/...

        •  Sarkozy: Recreating the Capitalist System (0+ / 0-)

          First of all, when world leaders speak, they are engaging in public relations diplomacy.  It's not surprising that when the U.S. economy is down, Sarkozy will give the U.S. a kick in the rear.

          Secondly, if a global summit establishes technical modifications that ensure the efficiency of the international financial markets, well that's fine and dandy.

          However, if Sarkozy and the French intend to attack capitalism itself -- and throw out the baby with the bathwater because the free market is having problems -- then I think they may well be the losers.

          Personally, I hope that Obama will solve the recession as much as possible by free market mechanisms and will have the confidence to support capitalistic methods even in a downturn.

          I think that Democrats often mistakenly attack  Republicans across the board as selfish and narrow-minded.  Not all Republicans are corporate fat cats.  Some simply believe that individual freedom and cultural diversity are best achieved via a commitment to free enterprise.

          Capitalist values and behaviors are in our blood as Americans; and this in fact may well be our strongest national asset during a period of economic transition.

    •  Play it Smart, Dems (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jurassic Game Warden

      There is great strategic advantage to having Bush start this and Obama finish it.

      No deals will get done so quickly so there's not much to worry about.

      What this will lead to is international accounting requlations, laws or legal standards, reform of the IMF and a banking system based on a basket of currancies not just the USD.

      I'm very certian the EU is pressing hard on this to drive the wedge of EU influance into the IMF which has been historically dominated by the USA.

      Bush the Social Consevative Conservative Socialist has no choice at this point. Let him put Republican fingerprints on this before it gets handed-off to a Democratic President and Congress.

      By the way, there would be no legal precident for candidates for office to be included, do you really want the US embarrased by the participation of McCain and Palin?

      Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

      by koNko on Mon Oct 20, 2008 at 02:22:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your take is wrong. Anything negotiated & signed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jurassic Game Warden

      by Bush is bound to be honoured by the president elect.

      Europeans are smart enough to concede that the US president-elect re-negotiates any agreement he inherits is another matter.

      The world has to move on - US election or no US election - and start addressing the world economic problems that was triggered in large part by the United States.

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