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View Diary: IL-9: Why I'm Voting Against Jan Schakowsky. (109 comments)

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  •  Yes and I vote Democrate 99.9% of the time, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timoteo, Shliapnikov, 4kedtongue

    so I don't think that a rare exception (and the reasons for it being exceptional)is off board.

    But if you were reading my post before commenting on that, this should all be clear.

    "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

    by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:02:39 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  No (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Feanor

      This is a troll diary, pure and simple.  

      •  Care to explain? (0+ / 0-)

        "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

        by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:07:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Feanor, oceanstar17

          This is a Democratic website.  Not a progressive website.  A Democratic website.  You are advocating for voting against a Democrat and in favor of a Green candidate.  This is no better than writing a diary saying you are voting for McCain over Obama.

          Putting aside that you are shilling for the Greens (which is essentially shilling for Republicans anyway) your diary is purity trolling at its worst.  Your diary really, really, really sucks.  You should think hard about deleting it.  

      •  Why is it a troll diary (5+ / 0-)

        We have serious problems in the Democratic House leadership, of which Schakowsky is a key part.  It has frankly been a dismal two years, and for Pelosi and company to come out of it with even lower approval ratings than Bush while initiating the cave-in that led to getting the FISA bork on the books ought to tell us something.

        •  There is a time and a place for it (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mia Dolan

          Less than two weeks out from election day just isn't it.

          •  No. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shliapnikov, 4kedtongue

            Now is the perfect time of it.

            I'm not arguing that Schakowsky should lose; I'm making a case for a protest vote because Democrats ought to behave as Democrats, and vote the views that they and their constintuencies profess.

            "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

            by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:16:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is a Democratic board (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Feanor, Mia Dolan

              Plan and simple. Its mandate is to elect Democrats, not defeat them! And who are you to say that you speak for every "constituency" in the Democratic Party?

              Again go to a Green Board or DU, where they are more sympathetic to protest voters. This board's focus is for "victory", not wasting precious votes on pointless political protests that no one will care about, listen to, or hear.

              So yes, while many people here are working extremely hard to help Obama and other Democratic candidates through volunteering and spreading the word, your post is not helpful. In fact it's insulting and demoralizing.

              •  Constituency. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shliapnikov, 4kedtongue

                POINT 1. I might be wrong.  But trashing me isn't going to accomplish that.

                POINT 2. In a close race those votes are wasted, because the focus is on winning.  But this is going to be a race about mandate, so I don't think my vote is wasted.

                POINT 3. Her constituency, not me, her constituency is dramatically opposed to the war in Iraq, and quite likely the bailout as well.  That is the claim I am making.

                "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:24:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What do you expect? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mia Dolan

                  This is a board whose mandate is electoral victory, and you're here polling the board with attacks against Democrats? Did you expect positive feedback?

                  •  Not positive feedback. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Shliapnikov, 4kedtongue
                    Thoughtful feedback.

                    No thought has gone into most of these flames.

                    Think about it; I might be totally wrong, but my argument is elevated by the fact that people are misrepresenting me, not bothering to address my concerns.

                    There have been some constructive disagreements here.

                    And by the way, the people who are so worried about the oh-so-profound negative impact of this post are posting comments the most aggressively, meaning that it's getting more hits that something probably more important.

                    At least own that, my fellow closet-Green co-conspirators!

                    "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                    by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:39:16 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  LOL (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Feanor

                      Actually, the problem is that no thought went into your diary.  There is no positive feedback because there was nothing positive or about your diary. There is nothing to deconstruct - your diary just plain sucks.  Its completely worthless.

              •  A bit restrictive,,, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shliapnikov, blueskiesfalling

                ... but this is always the argument here.

                Is a protest vote in a safe district in line w/ the goal of electing more and better Dems to office?  I'll bet this argument is only going to get more heated come the next election, in light of what looks to be an upcoming Dem landslide.

                In future those primary races are going to be the next battleground ... and anyone who thinks the primary system is going to be responsive without some outside pressure is NOT being very realistic.

                And a large enough protest vote in '08 may have impact on an 2010 primary. I think it's at least worthy of debate, and IMHO not out of bounds for the mission here, or in conflict with the TOS.  

                Again, NOT sure Shakowsky deserves this, but c'mon - there is a bit of 'pile on' just because many here really hate the concept.  

                Those who fail to learn from history...are invited to submit an application for a position in the Bush administration.

                by Timoteo on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:40:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And I would reconsider a protest vote (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Shliapnikov

                  if the seat was closely contested.

                  "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                  by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:53:11 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  All seven of the House Democrats... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...whose districts take in the City of Chicago are absolute mortal locks on November 4.  It will be a shock if any of them (Bobby Rush, Jesse Jackson, Jr., Dan Lipinski, Luis Gutierrez, Rahm Emmanuel, Danny Davis and Schakowsky) receives less than 70% of the vote in their races on November 4 (they may all top 75%).

                    Even so, I'd gladly trade the entire lot of them for one Robert Wexler (and I'd even throw in a deep-dish pizza), or for any one of several dozen true progressives in the House.  Any takers?

              •  Not so "Plan (sic) and Simple" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueskiesfalling, 4kedtongue

                The "plain and simple" plan is to elect more Democrats and better Democrats.

                Jan Schakowsky happens to be one of the "better" Democrats on most issues, but participating on the dK does not mean we give up our rights to debate how to convince Democratic elected officials to vote better on our issues. When they are wrong, we need to find an effective means for telling them so. Even two weeks before an election.

                Your argument would have more merit if Jan were in a close race, but given her likely margin of victory, you are sounding like an inflexible, authoritarian party hack. And I write this as a high-ranking Party official who values party loyalty.

                blueskiesfalling has made it clear he supports Schakowsky's re-election, but is looking for a way of registering her disappointment with her votes on issues important to him. I do not think his/her contemplation of a third-party vote is unreasonable. Nor do I think it is verboten on this board.

                "... if I can lead you into the promised land someone else can just as easily lead you back out again." --Eugene Debs

                by Shliapnikov on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:45:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Stupid (0+ / 0-)

              Your protest vote accomplishes absolutely nothing.  

        •  Thank You. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timoteo, Shliapnikov, 4kedtongue

          I am very proud of my votes which are in alignment with 99% of the people on Daily Kos.

          I like that it takes about ten seconds of publishing a dissenting view (note: I want her elected, I commend her on her good votes, I wish she hadn't voted so disappointingly on two crucial issues) for this to basically turn into a pile-on of insult.

          "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

          by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:14:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry people here are to elect Democrats, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mia Dolan

            not defeat them.

          •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

            Its a pile on because you have written an incredibly shitty diary, and one that violates site rules. You are asking people to educate you on Schakowsky AFTER you write your diary?  What the fuck is that?  You are pathetic.

            •  I read the site rules. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Shliapnikov

              I didn't see anything to indicate that this post violates rules.

              But if:

              1. you can demonstrate to me that it does so, or,
              1. a mod or admin requests me to take it down,

              then I will.

              "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

              by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:25:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Read this. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mia Dolan

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                DailyKos exists to elect Democrats.

                Delete this diary.

                •  Just read it, and it's not addressed to me. (2+ / 2-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Shliapnikov, 4kedtongue
                  Hidden by:
                  Feanor, Mia Dolan

                  I'm not the person that post describes.

                  And I don't call for her to LOSE, which is something people responding to this post can't or won't acknowledge.

                  But like I said, if someone can actually show me that I'm wrong about the appropriateness of this post, or if a mod or admin contacts me and tells me so, I'll delete it myself.

                  "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                  by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:30:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Now you are being dishonest. Feigned ignorance is (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mia Dolan

                    despicable.

                    Begone, troll.

                    •  Where have I heard all this before? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      4kedtongue

                      Generally, the less reasonable someone is, the shrill he or she becomes.  Which is why the McCain campaign has been reduced to shrieking about Bill Ayers, while Obama is talking about his health plan.

                      Sugar and vinegar.

                      "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                      by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:35:45 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are campaigning for a Republican on dKos (0+ / 0-)

                        That is the reality here, calling me shrill won't change the fact that you are a troll.

                      •  You're absolutely right, blueskiesfalling... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Shliapnikov, blueskiesfalling

                        ...I respect your decision to hold your rep to account for how she has voted.  I also admire how you have handled yourself while being ATTACKED  here on dkos.  Shrill ad hominem attacks and a parrot's recitation of 'The FAQs' is all they can muster.  Don't let 'em get you down.

                        "NO! I will NOT yield!" Ted Stevens (R) Alaska

                        by 4kedtongue on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:49:27 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          4kedtongue

                          My day is a little bit better now.  :)

                          "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                          by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:54:26 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  I guess if the site rules don't matter to you. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Mia Dolan

                          Then there is no point in citing them.  And people who do so, can be described as 'shrill' or some other epithet.

                          •  Read some of the comments... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shliapnikov, blueskiesfalling

                            ...attached to this diary -- they're absolutely sickening.  An honest debate and disagreement is acceptable to me.  Mealy-mouthed, dismissive, expletive-laden attacks are facile and, I might add, immature. blueskiesfalling has been respectful in all replies to comments -- the same can not be said of some who have posted comments to the diary.  I respect your right to disagree, but in a respectful way.  

                            "NO! I will NOT yield!" Ted Stevens (R) Alaska

                            by 4kedtongue on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 11:02:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There's no getting around the fact that (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mia Dolan

                            this is a troll diary.  There is no point in attempting to have a 'respectful dialogue' with a troll who posts a diary attacking a Democrat 2 weeks before the election.

                            I respect your right to be totally wrong about this and either not understand the rules or believe they don't matter - but, you are not the troll who posted this diary.

                          •  I disagree with your absolutist interpretation... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shliapnikov

                            ...I have a problem, on principle, with that kind of rigidity.

                            "NO! I will NOT yield!" Ted Stevens (R) Alaska

                            by 4kedtongue on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 11:34:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What I mean by "shrill." (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            4kedtongue

                            You're not shrill for citing rules.

                            You're shrill for accusing me of "campaigning for a Republican on dKos" when I explain in my post that a vote for the Republican would be really, really bad.

                            "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                            by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 11:15:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You can pretend that you don't understand (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mia Dolan

                            why this diary violates the site rules, just as you can pretend that you don't understand that campaigning against a Democrat is the same as campaigning for her Republican opponent.

                            But I don't have to pretend to respect such dishonesty.

                          •  Do me a favor then. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shliapnikov, 4kedtongue

                            Since you cannot amicably disagree with me here to the point that you accuse me of supporting Republicans: check out the diaries I posted on the last two days about two very important ballot proposals coming up in Michigan.

                            The sencond, which lift a ban on stem cell research that is one of the most restrictive state laws in effect, is very close to failing.  They need press and they need funds.

                            I spent several hours drafting both of those posts (as well as this post, today), but unlike this post, they only garnered a few comments.

                            It upsets and discourages me that over 100 people will post attacks and insults over a protest vote that isn't in any danger of unseating anyone but that other diaries, including my post about Michigan's stem cell initiative, died without a glance.  I saw waht was happening to the other diaries on the home pages while you were all tearing me down.  What: if my post is such drivel, why are you spending so much energy responding to it?

                            That's what happens when anger wins, and by the way: THAT is how the Republicans play.

                            Thank you.

                            "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

                            by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 11:41:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No thanks. Do youself a favor (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mia Dolan

                            and delete.

              •  From the FAQs (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Feanor

                This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory.

                Delete this piece of shit excuse for a diary.  Go defame progressive Democrats somewhere else.

        •  Because (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oceanstar17

          Voting a Green candidate does absolutely nothing to fix the problems you are talking about.  

        •  Jan Schakowsky co-sponsored (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          decisivemoment

          Articles of Impeachment for Dick Cheney.

          But you want to hold her responsible for the FISA vote.

          Yeah. That makes sense.

          McCain/Palin. The sex and violence ticket.

          by wmtriallawyer on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:23:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't even mention FISA. (0+ / 0-)

            What conversation are you having?

            "No one gets to be born a butterfly, not even butterflies." - Santa

            by blueskiesfalling on Wed Oct 22, 2008 at 10:26:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Rec'd for bringing up the Cheney point . . but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueskiesfalling

            the fact is that there is legitimate distrust of the Congressional leadership of which Schakowsky is a part.  Voting against a member of the Dem leadership in a safe seat on grounds of her leadership association rather than her policies is certainly logical -- although in this case wrong in my view (disclosure: I have voted for Jan Schakowsky).

            Logical because the tendency of Democrats to cave has been extremely pervasive in this Congress, reaching places I never expected it to, and for that reason I refuse to brush this diarist off as a troll.

            Wrong because the overall voting record passes the test for election to Congress.  Where it might not pass the test is in further ascension in the Democratic leadership.  

            Now, we do need to know more about Schakowsky's role in leadership decisions under the circumstances, because as both a Progressive and a senior leadership member, she is potentially in a crucial role for Progressive Democrats, and if people like us back her over other Progressives, we want to know that she is not just another tactical noodle like Nancy Pelosi.  We need to be sure as progressives that we're pushing the most effective people possible into leadership positions.

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