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View Diary: Bill Clinton and Barack Obama in Florida on Wednesday!! (95 comments)

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  •  over time, (0+ / 0-)

    people's feeling/views do change. Clinton's ratings did improve after 2000 (but they took some beating again during the primary though but have recovered a tad since then; his favorables are just over 50% now which aren't that bad.)

    "People now remember Clinton as someone who presided over great economic times. That's a powerful image."

    I don't disagree with that. In fact, I had suggested a  few days back that Obama should've sent Clinton AND Gore together on the stump to swing states to remind the voters of the stark contract between C/G and Bush/Cheney's economic stewardship and results.

    But, the situation was VERY different in 2000. Clinton scandal fatigue WAS the dead weight that dragged Gore down badly, as I've pointed out in other comments here.

    Election Protection Wiki
    Go Obama/Biden! Throw the bums out!!

    by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 10:58:25 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Only because Al Gore let it be a drag... (0+ / 0-)

      and did not until the convention make a historic speech biforcating the personal failings with WJC from their great accomplishments...fear was Gore's failing not WJC...

      Obama/Biden'08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

      by dvogel001 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 11:48:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  just how successful has McCain been (0+ / 0-)

        in distancing himself from Bush? Not very, and he wasn't even Bush's VP (and despite the fact he did oppose Bush on some important issues earlier on.)

        People hold the party in power accountable. That's how it works.

        eg, this year, Obama deserved credit for running a good campaign, but the primary wind behind his sails is the intense dislike people have developed for Bush and his royal fuckups, which created the need for change.

        Bill Clinton, by acting recklessly, gave Republicans the sticks to beat up Clinton with, and WJC and GOP together led to the awkward/puerile nonsense the country had to suffer from for 2-3 years as the scandal/impeachment circus consumed the country and hindered agenda that could've helped people.

        Bill Clinton should've:

        1. admitted to the affair when it surfaced
        1. considered resigning and letting Gore take over

        Had Gore known that he would be hamstrung like this by WJC's sleazy side, I suspect that he would NOT have accepted the VP offer in 1992. Apparently Gore's mother warned him not to get too closely tied to the Clintons, based on her hunch about their selfish character; She was proven right.

        In retrospect, I also think that Gore would've been better off not accepting the VP spot (in which case Clinton's chances of winning would've been lower) but instead running on his own in 1996 or 2000 (after doing some good work on global warming as a senator.)

        Election Protection Wiki
        Go Obama/Biden! Throw the bums out!!

        by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 12:11:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Had Al Gore given an... (0+ / 0-)

          Obama style grand speech and put this issue to bed for the American people early in his campaign and moved on...it would not have been an issue...AG's fear made it an issue...

          AG did not have sexual relations with that woman
          AG did not lie about the affair
          AG did not have a personal failing

          and had nothing to hide...he hid behind his fear of polls and people not personally liking WJC at that moment despite 8 years of P&P...

          AG is now a great man who has gravitas and the "balls" to say bold things and probably has learned from Obama how to transcend the MSM and RWTR about unfair albatrosses around your neck...

          Obama/Biden'08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

          by dvogel001 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 01:55:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  MSM (0+ / 0-)

            behaves better probably because:

            1. there have been people like KO, Jon Stewart and the netroots helping expose the lies and putting bulshit spins/smears to shame in broad day light (and at night) over the last few years.
            1. drooling idiots and know-it-all's like Tweety/Russert etal have some remorse over the fact that they helped put the worst president in history over someone who (at worst) would have been a decent president. Their pocket books are probably showing that they were wrong to drool for Bush tax cuts back in 2000 (since the economy suffered overall, stock market will end up losing ground during these 8 eyars, and the dollar dropped precipitously during B/C)
            1. decent RR by Obama and his campaign, but nowhere near perfect; just consider how many specious spins McCain has been able to put into motion as did HRC during the primary; eg, her injection of "popular vote" as a potential measuring stick for winning the primary.

            I am an avid advocate for Rapid Response (and I do assess that Gore's campaign didn't do a good enough job with RR until towards the very end) and gave many tips here (and other channels) to the Obama campaign on the RR front through out this cycle (and it felt like I was seemingly heeded), but the fact is that Gore was gang-busted by a stupid and fucked up circle jerk of RWNM, MSM, Naderwing and had limited $$ resources (only about 1/7th of the money Obama will have raised and spent) which could've been used towards reparative ads etc.

            Ultimately, it wasn't Gore's personal loss that he wasn't allowed to be sworn-in. It was the country and the planet that paid the price. I think that Gore did the best he could given a bad hand dealt by many actors, important of which was Bill Clinton's reckless conduct as clearly demonstrated by the 15-20% deficits he was forced to start with (instead of starting say even in the polls). There's no question that had that handicap not existed, Gore would have had an stronger hand (in terms f polls and money) and hence he likely would've won by far bigger margin (despite the other external factors such as the bitchy media and Nader), making it rather difficult for the Republicans to steal it and hence he would've been the 43rd president of the US (I think he had the potential of ending up being the 5th head on Mt. Rushmore).

            Election Protection Wiki
            Go Obama/Biden! Throw the bums out!!

            by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:03:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Disagree with your premise that the MSM... (0+ / 0-)

              behaves any better than they did in 2000 election cycle...there are other outlets in the media that help temper their biases but I see no material difference in the MSM coverage.

              You and the other AG apologists continue to blame AG's lack of becoming POTUS on your whipping boy WJC where many of others like myself see that AG was the principal reason that AG did not get inaugurated...

              I love AG, I believe he has become a great man...I wish he had the kind of gravitas and boldness today 8 years ago...

              Obama/Biden'08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

              by dvogel001 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 04:04:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  what is so hard (0+ / 0-)

                for a rational person with decent intelligence to see and admit that

                1. starting 15-20% in the race is a far worse predicament than starting say even in the polls, and that
                1. it would have been better (for the sake of Al Gore, the party, the country and the planet) for Bill Clinton  to have kept his stupid penis tucked away in his pants for the duration of 8 years while occupying the most powerful and consequential political position on the god damn planet?
                •  We partially agree... (0+ / 0-)

                  We agree it is better to start even in the polls...Al Gore could have done that penis or no penis...again getting back to that breakthrough speech that he never gave until it was too late...

                  It would be better for all people not to have extramarital affairs...but for me...I do not blame that on WJC...we elected him knowing he had this character flaw (as we did with JFK) and we as a nation accepted that...America should not have allowed the Republicans to pursue a persecution of WJC over this personal failing...

                  JFK did not get persecuted for it...not fair to persecute WJC for it...

                  Talk about taking responibility...as a rational person with decent intelligence...can't you admit that AG was the biggest reason why AG lost the election:

                  Awful campaign strategy
                  VP Pick
                  No rapid response
                  No strategy to keep the good WJC blast the bad WJC
                  Limited electoral winning strategy
                  Letting the RW/MSM Echo chamber define you (Stiff/Technocrat)
                  No spine/fight
                  Limited ground game and offense
                  No plan for legal battles and GOTV vote suppression

                  Where I come from all that adds up to not WJC killing his election...WJC being a footnote to an awful ending to what could have been a great presidency...

                  Obama/Biden'08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                  by dvogel001 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 05:12:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  same old lame crap: (0+ / 0-)

                    Awful campaign strategy: that's circular logic. I think under the circumstances (polls, money, smears, Nader), he didn't have many options at his disposal but the strategy he used.

                    VP Pick: I think this was a very smart move by Gore to pick Lieberman as it shut up the neocons in the media/RWNM and gave some breather for Gore who was down by 15% from their smears. Lieberman likely helped put FL in play (I estimate that he may have brought anywhere b/w 30K to 75K conservative Jewish vote for Gore in FL) and since it had 25 electoral votes, that was a smart move, strategy wise.

                    No rapid response: I already said that this was weak in the Gore campaign. But, the attacks against him were quite different and harder to deal with than the attacks on Kerry mainly because the MSM was complicit in the smearing of Gore and you havee treat them gingerly when there was no other force (such as the netroots) to expose their lies and smears.

                    No strategy to keep the good WJC blast the bad WJC: how do you know WJC would've liked Gore blasting the "bad WJC". I bet HRC was against that keeping her own presidential ambitions in mind. I actually suspect that HRC was plotting every step of the way to down Gore (1. her friends Koch and Moynihan pushing Bradley over Gore 2. her fund-raising at the expense of Gore 3. Gore firing that jackass Mark Penn 4. Clintonite Rendell shamelessly calling on Gore to concede after the SCOTUS verdict; they all point in that direction.

                    Limited electoral winning strategy: addressed above.

                    Letting the RW/MSM Echo chamber define you(Stiff/Technocrat): some things could've been done to deal with that, but MSM is tricky as bitching too much can potentially work against you, especially in the absence of a movement like the netroots getting your back.

                    No spine/fight: damn it. He fought back and came from behind to win the election, damn it, despite Clinton's BJ, media smears and Nader's monkey business.

                    Limited ground game and offense: Clinton decided to ignore the party base after the 1994 rout and chose to triangulate and co-opt parts of the GOP agenda instead, apparently from HRC's DLC style advice (screw'em) and so the party backbone was in a delapidated state. Gore had no money or time to build it from the ground up. It took the Dean movement and the netroots movement (feeding into Obama's movement) to turn things around.

                    No plan for legal battles and GOTV vote suppression: Vote suppression wasn't foreseen before the 2000 election as a major issue that it was in 2004. He waged a strong enough battle in FL (I think Boies should've argued better though, in the SCOTUS, but I am not sure it would've made  difference given the apparent preset bias of the 5 justices that stopped the FL recounts).

                    •  to clarify. (0+ / 0-)

                      Gore was down by 15% (around 10-15%) entering the Dem convention.

                    •  Well I hate to do this but point by point... (0+ / 0-)

                      Awful campaign strategy: that's circular logic. I think under the circumstances (polls, money, smears, Nader), he didn't have many options at his disposal but the strategy he used.

                      As I have said to you before, his campaign strategy of basically saying I am my own man and had nothing to do with the WJC administration (until the convention) was fatal and he never recovered...he should have said that WJC made a huge personal mistake, I am completely faithful to my wife and now lets talk about all the great things we did together for this country and how that will continue under a Gore administration.  The money problems had to do with the lack of enthusiasm for his candidacy and lack of gravitas...

                      VP Pick: I think this was a very smart move by Gore to pick Lieberman as it shut up the neocons in the media/RWNM and gave some breather for Gore who was down by 15% from their smears. Lieberman likely helped put FL in play (I estimate that he may have brought anywhere b/w 30K to 75K conservative Jewish vote for Gore in FL) and since it had 25 electoral votes, that was a smart move, strategy wise.
                      also Limited Electoral Winning Strategy

                      We have gone over this as well...completely disagree here and you contradict yourself on another point here...Lieberman did not help the base and pushed voters to Nader.  Lieberman (although I did personally like him at the time) was charitably a moderate and did not help the base.  it probably cost 5% votes in the south and midwest states other than Florida limiting his playing field...essentially putting all of his eggs with a bunch of retired jewish Democrats in Florida to come through for him.  While killing his chances at close pickups in the mid-west and southern border states like TN and AR.  Lieberman also had a corportists background that encouraged Nader even more to fight the establishment.   Finally, putting a NE Jewish person on the ticket was a terrible blunder no matter how conservative Joe is, in the midwest to swing voters he was still a Jew from CT.  Although as a Reform Jew myself, I was proud to have a jewish person running as VP, I cringed when I heard the announcement for the race and felt in my heart that they would lose...

                      No rapid response: I already said that this was weak in the Gore campaign. But, the attacks against him were quite different and harder to deal with than the attacks on Kerry mainly because the MSM was complicit in the smearing of Gore and you havee treat them gingerly when there was no other force (such as the netroots) to expose their lies and smears.

                      True that it took Gore and Kerry not getting into the Whitehouse to learn from Dukakis' mistakes and the Netroots have been a tremendous help...no disagreement there...I still do not believe that the MSM was any worse or better in 2000 than today or 2004...

                      No strategy to keep the good WJC blast the bad WJC: how do you know WJC would've liked Gore blasting the "bad WJC".

                      Again because you and I fundamentally disagree that WJC truly loves this country and is a committed Democrat...he would have (as he is doing now) done anything AG asked to get elected and he knew that GWB and the Republicans were a disaster waiting to happen...

                      Letting the RW/MSM Echo chamber define you(Stiff/Technocrat): some things could've been done to deal with that, but MSM is tricky as bitching too much can potentially work against you, especially in the absence of a movement like the netroots getting your back.

                      No spine/fight: damn it. He fought back and came from behind to win the election, damn it, despite Clinton's BJ, media smears and Nader's monkey business.

                      Obama is a great example of how to do this...defining yourself before your opponents do...it blunts a lot of attacks later...in the end AG did come around both in defending himself and going on offense but it was too little too late

                      Limited ground game and offense: Clinton decided to ignore the party base after the 1994 rout and chose to triangulate and co-opt parts of the GOP agenda instead, apparently from HRC's DLC style advice (screw'em) and so the party backbone was in a delapidated state. Gore had no money or time to build it from the ground up. It took the Dean movement and the netroots movement (feeding into Obama's movement) to turn things around.

                      Well there you go again, contradicting yourself, part of the Lieberman pick was to appeal to the middle, DLCers and triangulate between his percieved liberal stances and balanced by Joe's more moderate stances...more of the same...this would have been a great opportunity to say, while we have been wildly successful, the end has to come to mincing words and nuancing meanings...from and AG administration you will to borrow a phrase from McBush get "Straight Talk".  Getting an outsider like a governor from a swing state would have helped tremendously in this area.  Lieberman, did not help with fundraising much either...do not disagree with the Netroots issue but being a DLCer was his choice with Lieberman...

                      It was not just the hanging chads in FL, there were thousands of disenfranchised AA voters in northern FL who were intimidated or their votes were not counted.  The Republicans were pulling the same crap they pulled in previous elections and the prevention of that happening would have made it that much harder to steal the election.  They also made a huge blunder in not asking for a statewide recount of all the districts, that was the turning point because it looked like the Democrats were just wanting to re-count the Democratic leaning districts looking for votes.

                      AG had a chance to ask for a statewide re-count which many experts decided after the fact would have yeilded a AG victory in FL but refused...

                      I find this discussion so interesting...

                      Peace...Go Obama/Biden

                      Obama/Biden'08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                      by dvogel001 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 06:09:53 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                        I haven't read the entire comment (and only perused some of your other response) due to shortage of time (will try to read them later), but a quick response on one point.

                        "AG had a chance to ask for a statewide re-count which many experts decided after the fact would have yeilded a AG victory in FL but refused"

                        Now you're latching onto wingnut false bullshit propaganda (since then pathetically co-opted some by Gore bashers on Dem/prog side). When the hell did Gore "refuse" to have the full state counted?

                        He didn't refuse but instead invited Bush to join him in asking for a full state recount, which was the only possible route given the state election law. See (2) below.


                        Facts about FL'2K
                        1. Gore fought for 35 days and conceded only when no legal recourse was left following the supreme court verdict: FL 2000 legal timeline.

                        2. The meme "Gore was cherry picking counties" is false. Manual recounts could be requested only county by county. Gore asked Bush to join him in requesting recounts in all of the counties. The Gore campaign also told the Bush campaign to request recounts in any of the counties that they wanted. See these links: one, two.

                        3. This 12/10/2000 CNN poll shows that 79% of Americans wanted Gore to concede should the SC ruling go against him. link.

                        4. After the verdict, likely signaling that the establishment was abandoning Gore, DNC Chair Rendell publicly called on Gore to concede: link.

                        5. Daschle and other senate Democrats had a power-sharing agreement with senate Republicans which was the reason that no Democratic senator signed on to join the CBC in challenging the certification of Florida's electoral college votes (contrary to some impressions seemingly left by Fahrenheit 9/11 movie's opening scene). excerpt.

                        6. Democrats.com analysis: Gore won Florida.

                        •  First of all I did say... (0+ / 0-)

                          that had we ordered a manual re-count of all counties (and AG could have asked for that by naming each county individually and instead took the trap of trying to negotiate county by county)

                          AG would have won...

                          By December 10th the election had dragged on for a month, the manual recount should have occured by then instead of negotiating with GWB...he fell into the trap.

                          Again poor negotiating vs going for what was right and bold...the Republicans controlled the whole process...it was pretty sad...

                          Obama/Biden'08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

                          by dvogel001 on Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 01:37:42 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  also (0+ / 0-)

            HRC's smearing of Obama with Wright couldn't keep him from edging her out for the nomination, but it did put a deep dent in Obama going for the jugular with a full-blown 50-state strategy (which seemed possible around mid-February).

            While he did a pretty good job on Wright, clearly, he couldn't fully offset it; the adverse impact could be felt in several ways (McCain's leads over Obama in March and April were a consequence of Wright smears, which in turn kept McCain close rest of the way until Obama hit some double digits (with some swings still around) following the fiscal meltdown and the debates). My point is that there are no magical solutions to overcome adverse factors; it takes time, effort and idea-generation to overcome them.

            Election Protection Wiki
            Go Obama/Biden! Throw the bums out!!

            by NeuvoLiberal on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 03:35:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That ultimately made Obama stronger... (0+ / 0-)

              and made him be a better candidate (you know the saying what does not destroy me makes me stronger)...I applaud her for bringing it up (although Hannity et al had done so before Hillary ever did).

              That forced Obama to deal with the issue and fine-tune his "rapid-response" team and aparatus (website et-al).

              Having Hillary finish strong on her and her supporters own terms strengthened the party, the Obama candidacy and Obama's standing in the country.  It showed that he could stand up and take it from Hillary and that was what it would take to stand up to the GOP smears.  

              Then when Hillary toughened him up, helped him strenghten his GOTV and registration operations, he was ready to take on the GOP and they had much less time to tear him down.  In fact the tiny chance that Hillary might have pulled this out in the end with super-delegates or a floor fight in a real way kept the GOP attacks against Obama to a minimum for an additional 2 months.

              Then when they tried to attack him Hillary's innoculations allowed Obama to maintain a positive message while saying...hey we already spoke about this old news...lets talk about the economy...this BTW annoys the hell out of the RWTR folks who can't believe they are unable to get the message out about Obama's supposed bad personal connections like they were able to do in other elections.

              The Wright smears in the end did not keep McBush close it kept McBush from being able to pass Obama as so many GOP have been able to do in the past...

              I agree with your final point that it takes time to learn how to respond and it was uncharted territory for AG...I would submit however, he could have learned from Micheal Dukakis in terms of being bolder and more forceful...it is not like it was the first time it happened...

              Obama/Biden'08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

              by dvogel001 on Sat Oct 25, 2008 at 04:00:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                "in terms of being bolder and more forceful...it is not like it was the first time it happened..."

                he's better in the vision and hard work department than playing in the mud. Unfortunately, the circumstances conspired collectively to deny the country of his pres. eladership which would've likely done it wonders.

                Due to my personal circumstances (where coincidentally hit rock bottom in 2000), I wasn't paying as much attention to the race (from March/April onwards). Had I paid attention and come to realize the dire situation Gore was looking at, maybe I would've tried to get involved (in some form) and got Gore's back as much as I could (esp. with some hopefully useful ideas.)

                The tragedy of 2000 was that so many people and assholes ganged up against Gore and so few were there to defend him. And it still continues today with mindless and ill-informed blaming of Gore for this and that.

                Fortunately, I think Gore has risen further above this political rubbish theatre and is focused on his mission to reverse global warming. I am proud to be a supporter and a defender of his, albeit I wish I could do this 8-9 years ago.

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