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View Diary: Important: Documents reveal how Ohio routed 2004 voting data... (156 comments)

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  •  This theory doesn't hold up (1+ / 0-)
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    MBNYC

    As one of the experts in the article points out, county election officials would have had to be in on the rigging since they would presumably know the vote totals that they transmitted.

    If you have county election officials in on the rigging to begin with, then you don't need a middle man to alter the vote counts in the first place, it could be done at the county level.

    •  Right... (0+ / 0-)

      except that the other expert cited addresses that. please read the whole article, look at the schematics (which took a long time to obtain) and then consider all of the info together.

      If man was devolving into a psychotic pit of rotted plasma, Rove would be the Alpha of such grime - By Some Smart Ass

      by Larisa on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 05:59:58 PM PDT

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      •  (expletives deleted) (0+ / 0-)

        You're getting so CT here that your actual argument is redacted?

        I'm sorry, but that's just pathetic. Truly.

      •  The last paragraph (0+ / 0-)

        Are you referring to the last paragraph of the article in which it is speculated that the results at the county level could have been tampered with from the man in the middle? It still is not that convincing. I would side with the skeptical expert:

        Even if data can be changed at the county servers, many pollworkers and possibly others know the results that were reported from their precincts, and someone would probably notice if the numbers reported by the county or state differed from those.

        •  I should add (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mnemosyne, Larisa

          Even though I am skeptical of the theory presented, it sure does seem like there should be secure national standards for elections in this nation in terms of voting infrastructure, and certainly elections should not be controlled by partisan officials. Otherwise, the situation we have now is never going to have sufficient credibility to withstand close elections.

          •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mnemosyne

            And there are two theories, or rather one theory by one expert and one non-theory by another presented. I don't have a theory, just my own belief, but that is not what we are discussing here. I appreciate the comment.

            If man was devolving into a psychotic pit of rotted plasma, Rove would be the Alpha of such grime - By Some Smart Ass

            by Larisa on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 06:26:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Further thoughts (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ben masel, Larisa

              I just read the affidavit that is linked to from the article. I think that the affidavit tells a much clearer and more compelling argument than the schematics document, and therefore maybe should be highlighted more in the diary. The schematics document is only a piece of supporting evidence to the story, and when the average person sees it, it doesn't communicate any information. It just looks like a technical drawing with a ton of arrows and labels. I think that is why you got such a negative response to this diary. Because the diary doesn't tell much of the story and most people wouldn't know what to make of the drawing, and I at least didn't realize that you were the author of the article. So, people didn't know what they were looking at and didn't know why you weren't telling them. Does that make sense?

              On top of all that, there is a well-deserved hyper-sensitivity around here to what might on the surface appear to be an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. I think this came across as a conspiracy theory, even though the article presents the skeptical view very clearly.

              But ultimately, perhaps in order to frame the story in a way that doesn't seem to be so much like a conspiracy theory, I think the important question that should be focused on isn't so much whether or not any vote tampering DID occur in 2004 in Ohio (although that is an important issue but without further evidence we don't know), but rather was the system set up in a way in which it COULD HAVE occurred? If that is what these documents show, then that leads to a lot of further questions as to why this was possible and why is it permitted to be possible.

              •  Excellent... (0+ / 0-)

                I am glad the article was at least clear and I do apologize if the diary was less so. But it is what it is now. I think both experts say that the structure creates the possibility, but one expert says given the results on election night, show a probability. The question is given the data, if this was not only possible, but probable? And really, how does one answer that? I don't know if there is enough here to answer that or not. Was there a flaw? Was there an outside influence? Could we tell the difference based on the structure? That is why many eyes of many experts are needed. Thanks for this!!!

                If man was devolving into a psychotic pit of rotted plasma, Rove would be the Alpha of such grime - By Some Smart Ass

                by Larisa on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 07:16:26 PM PDT

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              •  The schematic (0+ / 0-)

                does communicate information.  It tells you where the data is going [to and from].

                The arrows mean that data is going from the unit at beginning of the arrow to the unit where the pointy part of the arrow is pointing.  

                Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

                by dfarrah on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 07:54:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I know that (0+ / 0-)

                  Yeah I know that, I design illustrations like this for a living actually. But I think your average person will take one look at this and feel like it goes over their head. That is what I meant. There is just too much complexity to the diagram, it is a barrier to communication. Most people will take one look at it and run away. It is not really meant for the general public to be able to interpret I am sure.

                  •  oops, sorry, (0+ / 0-)

                    I thought the picture, what little I could see [the picture won't expand], seemed fairly straightforward.

                    Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

                    by dfarrah on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 08:22:12 PM PDT

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        •  Not if only a few votes (0+ / 0-)

          were flipped per precinct--but enough though to change the vote grand total.

          Bush's presidency is now inextricably yoked to the policies of aggression and subjugation. Mike Whitney

          by dfarrah on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 07:04:39 PM PDT

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    •  Local Co. Repubs. wouldn't have the hacking tools (0+ / 0-)

      presumably to alter local machine data.

      Whether anyone else did is a hypothesis put forward to explain irregularities.

      Whatever happened we can learn from this to design better security into out voting systems.

      "It's the planet, stupid."

      by FishOutofWater on Fri Oct 31, 2008 at 07:02:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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