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View Diary: Down to the Wire with Proposition 8's Assault on Human Rights.   (259 comments)

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  •  Actually, LDS does a tremendous amount of charity (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dotalbon

    work, especially in the area of feeding the hungry, both domestically and abroad.  Don't fall into the trap of thinking that because they are (horribly, tragically) wrong on the issue of gay marriage that they are necessarily hypocrites who don't follow through on their beliefs.  (If anything, their intense support of Prop. 8 is proof that they do follow through very strongly on their convictions.)

    I live in California, and have voted against Prop. 8 already.  I resent that these out-of-state forces are trying to amend my state's constitution.  But I can't and won't deny that LDS does a tremendous amount of charity work around the globe.

    You can oppose the issue without making villains of the opposition.

    •  Hypocrite applies, in spite of your loyalties. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deaniac83, Pender, dotalbon, sethtriggs

      Their "convictions" are not correct or a measure of benevolence on all counts.  To act with "Christian" goodness in a few areas while being blinkered by the larger picture and promoting hatred in others is a quintessential description of a hypocrite.

      •  It's not hypocrisy because it's not inconsistent. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sethtriggs

        Their moral code is the same when they state it as it is when they act upon it.  You think they're hypocrites because their value systems don't comport to yours.  They don't jive with mine either, but that doesn't make them hypocrites.

        They also don't see supporting Proposition 8 as being the promotion of hatred, merely the opposition of sin.

        As a resident of this state I'm really frightened that Prop. 8 might pass.  The whole thing leaves my stomach in knots when I think about it too much.  But what we need to do is recognize that the people voting Yes on Prop. 8 are human beings who think they are doing the right thing.  If we write them off as hypocrites who want only control, we can't bring them around to what we see as the moral, just path forward.

        •  You've repeated yourself. (0+ / 0-)

          That is hardly persuasive.
          You reiterate your position by saying
          "They also don't see supporting Proposition 8 as being the promotion of hatred, merely the opposition of sin."
          I suggested their position is not one of goodness, or loving "your brother as you love yourself" (surely you know who reportedly said that).  I'd say that means they don't get to tell me what irrational nonsense they consider to be a sin.
          It IS hateful, in spite of what they SAY it is.
          That is the hypocrisy as I see it.
          I will only deal with logical perspectives and I will persuade no religious zealot who holds mumbo jumbo notions of reality.  I cannot loose someone from the bonds of foolishness with concrete information.  I accept that and it doesn't worry me overly much in the expanding, advancing universe.

    •  No one said LDS doesn't do charity (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Heather in SFBay, 714day, Pender, dotalbon

      I said the religious right doesn't care about hungry children.  They made it very clear that their issues are social, not economic.  I am not accusing the entire LDS Church membership of being bigots, I am saying that those on the right wing fringe do not care about feeding hungry children.  I stand by that.

      •  And that line of thought is unfortunate, because (0+ / 0-)

        it's both totally irrelevant to the topic at hand, and is demonstrably inaccurate.  Do you really think that if you asked a member of the LDS whether they care about hungry children, and they gave you an honest answer, that answer would be no?

        We should be trying to have a dialogue with these people, and bring them around on as many important issues as possible.  Obviously, that's extremely difficult because of entrenched values, but it becomes nearly impossible when people on our side say ridiculous things like "control, not compassion, is the goal for the right wing fringe."

        Don't make them into an evil "other" to whom we can't relate.  Disagree with them on the issues if you'd like (as I do, passionately).  Fight their campaigns  but turning them into bad guys is both intellectually lazy and counterproductive.

        •  with all due respect (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pender, CajunBoyLgb, sethtriggs

          Do you really think that if you asked a member of the LDS whether they care about hungry children, and they gave you an honest answer, that answer would be no?

          If by this question you mean if there are ANY members of the LDS Church that do not care about hungry children, the answer is a resounding yes. And even more believe that stopping two loving people from marrying is a bigger priority than feeding hungry children.  That is DEMONSTRABLY true to anyone who decides to look at the donor rolls for the Yes on 8 campaign.

          We should be trying to have a dialogue with these people, and bring them around on as many important issues as possible.

          Who are "these people", exactly?  Can you define?  If "these people" are people who feel so strongly about disenfranchising me of equal treatment under law that they will demonstrate and donate and hold up hateful signs like "God hates fags" and yell at me "Yes on 8!  Fuck the homos!" when I'm tabling for No on 8, then no, I do NOT want to have a dialogue with "these people."  The religious right wing fringe is not looking for a conversation, they are looking for dominion.

          Don't make them into an evil "other" to whom we can't relate.

          Except they are.  There is nothing in their beliefs that I can relate to.  Again, this isn't about an assault on Mormons as a whole, just those who hate my kind of love so much they would donate to and help out a cause dedicated entirely to making me a second class citizen.

        •  Give me a break. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deaniac83

          Do you really think that if you asked a member of the LDS whether they care about hungry children, and they gave you an honest answer, that answer would be no?

          And do you really think that if you asked a member of the LDS church whether they have expended more time and energy this year on the feeding and care of the hungry or on trying to eliminate my right to marry the man I love, any but a small handful would tell you the former?

          Please. The LDS church has never dedicated itself to ANY single project like it is dedicating itself to this one. Implying some kind of equivalence between their all-out persecution of gays and their token care for the poor is like the quip about Mussolini making the trains run on time.

    •  Ditto with the Catholic Church (0+ / 0-)

      and many Catholics have been able to reconcile their Catholicism with their opposition to political stands taken by their dioceses and parishes by donating directly to groups such as Catholic Charities, St. Vincent de Paul, Sacred Heart Community Services, etc. rather than to their parishes or to the annual Diocesan Appeal.

      My marriage doesn't need protecting, thank you very much.

      by Cali Scribe on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:05:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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