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View Diary: (update w/ video X2 + Darcy Burner) Prop 8: DEVASTATING internal memo from the LDS Church (453 comments)

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  •  How's Mormon Bigotry worse than Catholic Bigotry? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    monkee, ola senor

    I fail to see how the Prop. 8 campaign against gay marriage becomes any more or less reprehensible for being sponsored by Mormons covertly or publicly by the Catholics alone.

    There are undoubtedly also bigoted Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Adventists, Christian Scientists, Muslims and Jews etc. all up in arms to enact the gay marriage ban, as well.  Those of the Abrahamic faiths ("People of the Book") are locked into homophobic mindsets because its engendered by the general xenophobia which pervades their sanctimonious philosophy.

    You generally wont see Hindus, Bhuddists, Taoists, Scientologists, Raelians, Spiritualists, Wiccans, or practitioners of Eckankar or the Shamanic traditions go off on tangents telling others how to live or who to love. These more enlightened belief systems are more tolerant and accepting of others, and are thus more relective of that universal higher ["Cosmic"] Consciousness at the root of all genuine spiritual experience.

    Does it really matter which Xtian sect writes the checks for Prop. 8?  Who cares?

    "Extremism in the Defense of Liberty is No Vice; Moderation, in the Pursuit of Justice is No Virtue." - AuH2O

    by Press to Digitate on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:52:38 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  It's not but (5+ / 0-)

      There are dissenting voices in the Catholic Church in regard to this issue, and the Catholic Church has a smidgen of tolerance for them-- just enough not to excommunicate them entirely. No such luck with the Mormons-- the punishment for personal dissent, or even insufficient enthusiasm in executing marching orders is complete shunning, including loss of family, friends, even employment opportunities.

      When combined with the vast fortunes amassed by the strict, obligatory tithing policies of the Mormon Church and predatory capitalism of its administration, this makes the Mormons quite a bit more dangerous.

      •  Hell, *lots* of Catholics dissent all the time. (3+ / 0-)

        It's a nice check on the institution when doubt is seen as a natural part of faith — leaves room for a healthy skepticism :-)

        Denny Crane: But if he supports a law, and then agrees to let it lapse … then that would make him …

        Shirley Schmidt: A Democrat.

        by Jyrinx on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 03:41:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Cite please (1+ / 0-)
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        Please cite where someone has been excommunicated for personal dissent on the prop 8 issue.

        Please also cite where the "punishment for personal dissent, or even insufficient enthusiasm" on a political issue has led to a "complete shunning". I am not talking about organizing in opposition to the church, but maybe someone can cite where this happened in california in the last ballot measure on this.

        Look, sure, some members of the LDS church won't like you if you vote a progressive ballot.  I don't lose sleep over it.  You won't be thrown out of the church for it.  Members of the leadership of the LDS church have been committed democrats, and the gentleman from Nevada, i think he hasn't been thrown out of the LDS church yet.  

        On the other hand, I know of quite a few colleagues who were denied admittance to grad schools, and job placements because of their religious memberships.  

        Also you cite "strict obligatory tithing policies".  While obligatory, I don't think they are strict, nor are they forced at gunpoint as your comment seems to infer.  

        Also, I am at complete loss regarding your characterization as the LDS church leadership engaging in "predatory capitalism".  Can you please provide an example?  The LDS church does invest its funds in companies, and in this way participates in "capitalism", but then so does anyone who has any money in any stocks, mutual funds or private bonds.  And I guess we can just ignore the millions in aid given in the United States and abroad, given to African orphans and Hurricane survivors.  
        Really though, if you can provide information about LDS ownership of vietnamese sweatshops I would be glad to hear about it.


    •  you don't find (0+ / 0-)

      these planning memos at all interesting?

      John McCain, 100 years in Iraq "fine with me"

      by taylormattd on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 03:38:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not true re non-Abrahamic faiths. (4+ / 0-)

      Actually, there ARE three notable exceptions there in your list who do actively try to influence politics and have rather anti-LGBT agendas.

      Scientology in particular has actively attempted to run not only "stealth candidates" but done other hijinks not unlike the dominionists have (in fact, this is why Scientology is banned in Germany and many other European governments have specific governmental watchdog groups on coercive religious groups).  Much, much, much more info is available at Operation Clambake re Scientology and its political activities.

      Or you can always ask just about anyone who lives in Clearwater, Florida (whose local government has practically been steeplejacked by Scientologists in a remarkably similar manner to how Joel's Army pretty much steeplejacked Wasilla, AK).

      Also of note--Scientology does promote its own version of "reparative therapy" (and in fact promotes rather extensive analogues of Joel's Army "deliverance ministry" in general).  In fact, quite a lot of the recruiting strategy of Scientology re LGBT people as well as the internal rhetoric is almost identical to your average "Joel's Army" Assemblies of God church--fairly explicit recruiting combined with some anti-LGBT rhetoric that could've come straight out of the mouth of Fred Phelps or the lovely folks at "Watchmen At The Walls":

      'Societies that
      permit homosexuality don't deserve to survive.' - L. Ron Hubbard

      Being gay is seen as relatively as sinful as it is in neopente dominionist circles ("low tone" equals, in Scientology, something very sinful indeed).  Even the entry-level book used to recruit people into Scientology, "Dianetics", rather explicitly terms being gay as a "sexual perversion".

      And to throw this into the proper political context, Mark Foley seems to have been directly connected to a Scientologist "reparative therapy" group.  (Foley would seem to be the highest-level Scientologist "stealth candidate" yet elected to office).  

      Soka Gakkai, a "Buddhist-based" coercive religious group (which promotes, among other things, concepts that amount to a "Sutra-based" version of "prosperity gospel") are also rather infamous for their political activity, including in Japan and South Korea.  In fact, SGI's activities are remarkably similar to those of Joel's Army groups here in the States, complete with attempted torchings of mainstream Buddhist temples, "stealth candidates", preaching that voting for folks outside of SGI-controlled political parties will cause damnation, etc.  (I actually tend to refer to SGI's political activities in an article I did on Joel's Army promoter Paul Yonggi Cho, who seems to have been directly influenced by SGI.)

      There's also other examples with coercive religious groups all over the world--some of the Hindu nationalist political parties in India (which tend to be connected with groups decidedly outside the Hindu mainstream) would be canonical examples.

      So in this case, it's not so much a case of the "window wrapping" as, well, these tactics being unfortunately common across most coercive religious groups which get large enough to start having aspirations towards political power. :(

      (And yes, for the record, I speak as someone who grew up in one of the most virulently anti-LGBT movements existing in the US now--the "Joel's Army" movement in neopentecostal dominionist circles--who is now a very eclectic pagan.  Yes, even neopagan circles can go bad like this; I have had friends who've had bad experiences with neopagan groups that went cultic. :()

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