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View Diary: CA Homophobia: They Took My Rights Away (341 comments)

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  •  Oh please (4+ / 8-)

    I get the disappointment over Prop 8; I do. It sucks, okay?

    But what would've sucked a lot more is a President Elect McCain. You want to talk game over? McCain was game over for the entire country.  Quite possibly you wouldn't have had a recognizable country to live in four years from today. Say goodbye to the economy, say goodbye to the Constitution, say goodbye to individual liberties. Not just to gay marriage; but just about every individual liberty you can think of.

    An Obama victory should give you hope for the future. We'll get gay marriage, eventually. And when we do it will probably be on track that a President Obama helped lay down.

    And the blame for Prop 8 shouldn't rest on Democrats or the Obama Campaign, the blame should rest solely on the No on Prop 8 campaign. No on 8 was a underfunded mess.

    "We're not rifle shots here. We're Americans." John McCain

    by Larry Madill on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 06:56:12 AM PST

    •  Bite me. (18+ / 0-)

      I'll let other people give you donuts. You can go to hell.

      Your rights were not taken away yesterday. Mine were. Don't you DARE tell me how to feel about this.

      Comfort the disturbed. Disturb the comfortable.

      by Killer of Sacred Cows on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 06:57:35 AM PST

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    •  Well, here's what I think: (9+ / 0-)

      I've been thinking a lot about where to go from here. First of all, we need to elect Democratic secretaries of state who will administer our election laws fairly. And then our second thing is that we need to start paying a lot more attention to ballot initiatives now that we have control of the House and Senate. Start directing more and more of our funding towards those.

    •  And why was it underfunded? (10+ / 0-)

      And the blame for Prop 8 shouldn't rest on Democrats or the Obama Campaign, the blame should rest solely on the No on Prop 8 campaign. No on 8 was a underfunded mess.

      Couldn't be because the party's standard bearer spoke out against gay marriage, now could it?

      Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

      by BentLiberal on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:03:19 AM PST

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    •  I donated to questionable races across the nation (9+ / 0-)

      this year. They were all Orange to Blue progressives and a reasonable number lost.

      Starting today...and until we get equality in CA, NOT ANOTHER DIME to an out of state race. Period.

      NOT ANOTHER PHONECALL to Ohio or some other place...all of them will be in this state.

      Have the donut.

      "When there's only one race and that's mankind, Then we shall be free" Garth Brooks

      by SallyCat on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:04:40 AM PST

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      •  I wouldn't go that far. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SallyCat, KentuckyKat

        It's still important to protect our gains from the last two elections. But we need to pay much more attention to these things, because they have a direct impact on our Congressional races -- these initiatives are put in place because they generate fundie turnout. Charlie Brown (CA-04) lost by 1,000 votes or so -- if you think that this initiative was not designed to get people like him beat, then you have got to be kidding yourself.

        And it worked the other way here in Missouri -- the reason Claire won in 2006 was because the Minimum Wage bill turned out a ton of people who might not have voted otherwise.

    •  Uprated (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      this diarist "apologizes" to the 30% of African American Californians who he states are "associated with mean-spirited people," without anyone saying as much as boo.

      I don't agree with your comment and the diary makes several good points, but this is not a troll comment.

      "If you don't have a record to run on...You make a big election about small things." - Barack Obama

      by GN1927 on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:15:13 AM PST

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      •  I beg to differ (4+ / 0-)

        The parent comment presents a false dilemma (that Obama's coming out harder against Prop 8 would have resulted in President McCain). And furthermore, it's all about blaming the victim. Not to mention it's really insensitive in the context of this diary. Please reconsider your uprate.

        •  I find this diary insensitive musing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          if not outright bigoted with more than a hint of guilt by association.  Again, I don't agree with that comment in full, but a bad argument isn't automatically a trollish one.  I'd have piled on with a donut had it contained any insinuation that the passage of this proposition is okay or not a big deal.

          "If you don't have a record to run on...You make a big election about small things." - Barack Obama

          by GN1927 on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:27:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's the morning after (8+ / 0-)

            an incredibly emotional election and a personally and politically devastating potential defeat. I'm cutting the diarist some slack.

          •  The diarist (7+ / 0-)

   legally married in California. Probably. But over half of the state's electorate voted that he does not deserve the fundamental human right that he and his husband enjoy.

            I thought the diary was remarkably calm, under the circumstances.

            "I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.

            by paxpdx on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:43:58 AM PST

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            •  I don't find hateful (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              guilt by association arguments calm.  Not now, not ever.  I'm in the minority in this diary obviously but I find it incredibly ironic to say the least.  So if people think it's okay for this diarist to basically declare that he will be practicing racial and religious bigotry, more power to you all.  But I find it hypocritical, at best.

              "If you don't have a record to run on...You make a big election about small things." - Barack Obama

              by GN1927 on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:46:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't either (6+ / 0-)

                But as a queer Catholic, I also know that the depths of my ire at how my Church aided and abetted this act intended to deprive a class of people of fundamental rights makes KoSC's response look like mere irritation.

                I didn't take it personally at all. Nor do I think it's KoSC's complete position. I understand the anger, and don't believe it's helpful to pretend it's not there. Not today.

                Tomorrow's another day. And then another one. And then another one. We'll get there - but it'll take some of us "on the inside" to get there as well.

                "I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.

                by paxpdx on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:56:49 AM PST

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                •  It just says something to me (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  evilstorm, paxpdx

                  that the first reaction was this hatefilled.  Not merely hurt and angry, but hateful.  I've been down this road before regarding this exact issue on this website and don't want to repeat it.  So I hope we all choose to regroup and figure out how to craft a message which will defeat an extremely ugly anti-gay Americans agenda.  The kind of bigotry contained in that proposition is such a poison to this country, that I'll stand in coalition even with people who think like this diarist who have now declared me suspicious until proven otherwise merely because of the color of my skin.

                  "If you don't have a record to run on...You make a big election about small things." - Barack Obama

                  by GN1927 on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 08:05:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I've been there (5+ / 0-)

                    I've been hurt so badly that I couldn't see clearly, and only managed to lash out in fury, pain, and rage at anyone and everyone that I perceived as somehow having something to do with that hurt - by commission or omission.

                    It's not remotely pretty. I'm not proud of it at all, but I'm not going to delegitimize the feelings of someone who's in the throes of it right now. It's not helpful, and it doesn't speed that part of the process along, either. There's ways to avoid going into that thrashing mire; I learned them over time - a lot of time. Someone who's just been kicked in the gut is not necessarily going to get there instantly.

                    My not-brother and his husband are both Catholic as well. The sadness and betrayal they feel is immense. I'm not even asking them to take the long road today; for today, I'm asking them to just get through the day, and know that they're loved. We'll have dinner tonight and talk about next steps, and I fly back to Oregon tomorrow. In California, the work will just be beginning. The pain will begin to be transformed into action.

                    "I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.

                    by paxpdx on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 08:21:19 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're obviously a kind soul (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      and yours and musing's arguments have some merit.  I don't want to pour salt into anyone's wounds, but I stand in coalition with people who think like this diarist very reluctantly, and for the limited purpose of not allowing a poisonous anti-American agenda to take root just as this country has an opportunity to turn the page from the excesses of the regressive Bush years.  

                      Thank you very much for your civil comments, they are really appreciated.

                      "If you don't have a record to run on...You make a big election about small things." - Barack Obama

                      by GN1927 on Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 08:27:46 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  uprated (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows

      As a queer person who still sometimes forgets to identify as queer and accidentally places herself in the straight category (long story, tl;dr I'm weird), I see where you're coming from. But you're not going to make any friends here. People are angry and people are betrayed. Don't tell them how to feel. Give'em time to cool off. We all didn't want 8 to pass, we all hate that it did, and we're all game for the fight to restore equality. So we'll get it done, but...give people space to grieve.

      •  Why would you do that? (4+ / 0-)

        Why uprate a comment that is, as you acknowledge yourself, incredibly insensitive in context of this diary? If you want to make a point, find another of the commenter's comments and give offsetting mojo. But the parent comment was deservedly hidden and should stay that way.

        •  actually (0+ / 0-)

          Because I did want to support his point. I initially saw it as him being dogpiled for expressing an unpopular opinion, but one that was correct nonetheless--I refer to the part where he talks about a McCain win fucking everyone over, LGBT people included. And, as GN1927 said, the diarist's instinctive guilt by association raised my hackles pretty badly. Anger or no, some things should not be said, for fear they veer dangerously close to the territory of hate that our opponents walk in.

          It would have been bad tactics for Obama to strongly oppose Prop 8; it would have been the right thing to do, but bad tactics. Few people were sure about the election outcome, everyone was doing what they could to secure it. This was just another of those things.

          The equality agenda was sacrificed for the presidency. I get that, and I am truly sorry for the pain LGBT folks are going through. But it...was a move that helped create a more favourable political landscape for us. As other people have said, with a President Obama there'll be a more liberal SCOTUS. Now we can bargain from a position of strength. Now that the Dem candidate is in, we can squeeze them as hard as we want to get'em to enact change.

          That being said, you're right in that it was phrased in an amazingly insensitive way. I do very much dislike the way he tells people how they should feel, and the casual dismissal of their pain. And now I'm torn as to whether I should keep it uprated or not. All right, I agree with you and will remove it, because he was rather a jerk about it and I really don't need to be exacerbating people's pain; but he had a point, goddamnit.

          •  Can't agree with you (3+ / 0-)

            There was no chance McCain was going to win this election. And there's absolutely no evidence that coming out more strongly against Prop 8 would have had any significant effect on Obama's electability. That argument was bogus in 2004, and it was absolutely destroyed last night, when anti-gay initiatives passed (or, in California's case, seems to have passed) in four states, yet Obama won in two of them and the other two were never really likely to go for him anyway.

            And I really don't see how Obama's election did all that much to create a more favorable political landscape for teh queer. Obama has made it very clear all along that he really does not get us or our concerns, and does not consider them a priority. If you need evidence of that fact, you have only to look at how wishy-washy his opposition was to Prop 8. He didn't even bother to come out against any of the other three anti-gay amendments that I'm aware of. The only way we're going to get a more favorable political environment under a President Obama is by holding his feet to the fire and making it very clear that unless we see some concrete measures of support and concrete progress on our agenda, he's not going to find us quite so willing to  open our wallets or donate our time and talent in four years.

            •  there was always the possibility (0+ / 0-)

              that it would have been stolen through the usual Republican fucking around. We wanted a massive buffer to prevent that. If he came out against Prop 8 or any of the other amendments, it could have cost him socially-moderate undecideds; it could have cost him white evangelical Christians, whose vote was very hard-won; it could have cost him black evangelical Christians, who might've felt that they had no choice but to sit it out instead. Part of the strategy of the campaign was to give the opposition as few weak points as possible, to be slippery as an eel. A pro-gay-marriage stance would instantly have given the entire fucking GOP machine a handle for their arguments, and you can bet your life that they would've bludgeoned their goddamn base with it. It would have energized the religious bigot vote.

              Obama has sponsored legislation to ban discrimination based on orientation, to revise hate crime laws to include gay/gender identity crimes, he wants to repeal DADT and DOMA. His tactics during the election may not show much support for LGBT issues, but his long-term record does. I think it matters to him; I just think he chose not to bring it up till after the election. Now that he's in, it means more liberal judges in SCOTUS--it'll take a while, but that's almost guaranteed. And they will be much more likely to pass a federal amendment saying, gay marriages allowed, that's final, now stfu. As president/president-elect his support will mean shitloads to anyone trying to pass bills and whatnot. He can throw his weight behind revisions towards equality, and damn straight his voice as president will have a much huger force than if he was just an also-ran. I'm all for holding his feet to the fire; I do believe that, socially speaking, this is the biggest and most pressing issue and everyone should get on his case until we see proof of change. So yeah, I have hope, and I would not be so quick to shoot him until he actually gets in office. I think change is coming.

              •  Obama's record on gay rights (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Killer of Sacred Cows

                is really not terribly distinguished, as I've pointed out both here and elsewhere numerous times. He's never actually written a gay-rights bill. He's only ever signed on as a co-sponsor ex post facto. And none of the bills he ever "supported" actually got passed. The bill that eventually added homosexuality as a protected class to the Illinois Human Rights Act was one on which Obama was not a co-sponsor, despite its having been introduced into the General Assembly within three days of the one he did co-sponsor that session. And at least as far as I can tell from the online records, he never once spoke up in support of any of the bills he technically co-sponsored, all of which died in committee.

                That is not, I'm afraid, the picture of someone who's likely to go to the mat on gay issues. Especially when the only times during the campaign he talked about them was when he was in front of "safe" audiences and generally out of the public eye. He knows he needs our support, but he doesn't seem particularly eager to acknowledge that fact openly to the wider electorate. And that does not inspire a great deal of confidence in me when it comes to having a President Obama doing anything terribly substantive with respect to gay rights--which is precisely why I say we need to hold his feet to the fire on this question from Day 1. If his campaign taught us anything, it should be that his initial, fundamental inclination is to go softly on gay rights. That can't be allowed to go unchallenged.

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