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View Diary: Morning Reaction: Closing Guantanamo (318 comments)

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  •  I wish the ACLU and MoveOn wouldn't put out ads (25+ / 0-)

    to things that Obama obviously knows he wants to accomplish and obviously will. He knows Gitmo is a huge recruitment tool for new terrorists. Why waste money and time on that and at the same time make Obama look like he caved to the left when he was already going to do this? It cant appear that way, or it will be used against him. Why leave any line of attack open towards him for 2012?

    •  I don't think it will make it (30+ / 0-)

      look like he "caved" to the left, since this was something he said he was going to do all along during the campaign.

    •  how about justice? (20+ / 0-)

      How about the due process of law that we guarantee to everyone we accuse of a crime, even non-citizens?

      Is that to be subordinated to electoral concerns? Are we to shut up now about torture and arbitrary detention because it might inconvenience the next administration?

      •  And what have they accomplished there (15+ / 0-)

        in all these years? Anything? Torture? What information has that brought us?

        Guantanamo has brought the U.S. nothing but shame and headache. Only the Republicans would be stupid enough to fight to keep it going. Jesus Christ. That was just one of the Bush Administration's WORST ideas and failures.

        It needs to stop. Now. If Bush was any kind of leader (which he is NOT) He would close it himself so Obama couldn't get satisfaction.

        It is November 4th. David did, indeed, beat Goliath.

        by voracious on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 12:50:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  no. (5+ / 0-)

        no one is trying to shut anyone up. sorry if i gave that impression. but im just wondering if this is going to be spun like the betrayus ad. obviously, this is a totally legitimate ad compared to the betrayus ad. but at the risk of being told to shut up, i'm just being honest here, but this less about electoral prospects, than having the political capital to get things done. if i remember correctly, the media did this to bill clinton, and it pushed him to the right for 8 years. and look waht happened. we got shit like DOMA. i just dont want that to happen again. if it looks like obama made the decision himself and not look like he was pressured to do it, as i suspect the media will spin it, then it might be seen as more of a success.  and obama lurched rightwards on FISA and gun laws... it's just a hypothetical. i know he'll do the right thing on gitmo, since it's the 1st most obvious step.

        •  I wasn't aware (7+ / 0-)

          that there was overwhelming popular support for torture and arbitrary detention. I was under the impression that there was quite a bit of popular support for the opposite.

          Things like ending torture are the bare minimum we expect from Obama. We elected him precisely to do this. If he does not do it, then what was the point of getting so many people so excited about his candidacy?

          •   i totally agree with you. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ivorybill, SnowItch, lovelyivy, Floande

            i'm just trying to predict potential roadblocks ahead, since i'm still traumatized after how much bill clinton lurched to the right because of the appearance that he was caving to the left. and a lot of things that can be done easily are not done because there's no political capital to do them. bill left a lot of unfinished business and things that have to be undone now becuase of that. maybe Obama has a lot more courage, but with his actions so far, i havent been that impressed. these are just observations. not criticisms really. i wont criticize unless they put out another stupid ad like "alex" or "betrayus". But the ACLU gitmo ad is totally fine, good and legit. so i have no problem with it.

        •  Don't let lying propoganda shame you (9+ / 0-)

          You're reacting to the terrorism of the right by pushing Obama to reject the Left.

          Yet earlier you bemoaned that Bill Clinton moved to the center due to right-wing spin.

          Now you want to move Obama there voluntarily?

          Closing Gitmo is and OUTSTANDING idea that originated from the Left.

          •  i think most americans are against torture but (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BentLiberal, SnowItch

            have no idea WHY gitmo remaining open would be a bad thing. I hate to burst some of your bubbles here but please try to remember that mostof the people on this board are very politically active and astute.

            The rest of us have only been told for 8 years that Gitmo was necessary to keep us safe from terrorists. And most in te general population have a sort of feeling that while potential terrorists have rights, that cannot be "coddled".

            All I'm saying is that robertacker13 has a point. Many here do not know who "regular apolitcal americans" are and how they think. And if you think that everyone who voted for Obama dis so with an eye on his Gitmo or FISA position you are deluded. I didnt. Or rather it wasnt a primary concern for me and I am more political than 90% of the people I canvassed and phonebanked.

            I  think Obama can overcome the spin by EXPLAINING why Gitmo presents problems for the U.S. and WHY it won't make terrorists more capable of harming us. I personally think he MUST do that rather than assume that people "get it" and that the last 8 years of faux-patriotic talk has not had some effect.

    •  Who cares what they think (12+ / 0-)

      The Wingers have been out right rejected at the ballot box in two straight elections now. They are NOT the main stream, they are the rightwing lunitic fringe and that is all that remains of their party at the moment.

      Gitmo should be closed on Jan 21.

      "Load up on guns, bring your friends, it's fun to lose and to pretend" Kurt Cobain-1991

      by Jeff Y on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 12:39:53 AM PST

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    •  We need the ACLU and MoveOn. (11+ / 0-)

      They are the unrelenting voice of reason. They were there when shrieks of madness filled our ears, let's not be so ungrateful and foolish as to silence them now.
      Let them speak as long as they speak truth.

      The Shape Of Things "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian

      by notquitedelilah on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 12:50:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, not silence them (4+ / 0-)

        but maybe if obama could coordinate with them into a coherent strategy, instead of more betrayus ads and inflammatory alex ads. (not that this gitmo ad is a bad ad. in fact it's totally legit and a good ad. im just wondering if they have a strategy with it. and i thought it would be more effective if it was released after the inauguration)

        •  They are both coherent organizations. (6+ / 0-)

          Abandoning Progressive principles because you're afraid of right-wing propoganda is, if you don't mind me saying so, incoherent.

          •  i still say (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SnowItch

            better if they coordinate a long term strategy with obama's community organizing methods. it worked for the election. it can work for issues.

            •  I thought they weren't supposed to coordinate (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BentLiberal

              during the campaign, and quite possible when he is in office.  It's a PAC.  All he can do is ask them not to do something, but that doesn't mean they have to honor the request.

              I agree that we need these voices as the call to action.  I also agree that it's time to stop letting the right tell us what is right.

              Yes We Did!
              I am droogie6655321!
              EENR

              by Scubaval on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 04:04:55 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  It is not about abandoning principles (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            awnm

            Its about giving Obama the chance to do the right thing on his own, and sell it in a way he wants to sell it. Let's not give him additional political variables to deal with, on an issue he is already doing the right thing about. Why pick a fight for no reason!

            "My Religion is very Simple, My Religion is Kindness" - The Dalai Lama

            by joyncassie on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 09:48:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Still don't think that being ashamed of the Left (0+ / 0-)

              is the way to go here.

              If you're not left of center, you may not have noticed, but there's an inexorable message drilled into the Left here on dkos - shut up and don't rock the boat.

              Most on the left are were willing to do "the right thing" to get Obama elected. But with Republicans pretending that this is a right-center country, I don't think winking and pretending that's so is the way to move the window left.

        •  The ACLU is a non-profit (5+ / 0-)

          and like all non-profits, they have to struggle to get the resources they need.  Yes, part of their motivation is to push the Obama administration in a direction they are already going.  Part of their motivation is to expand their own base of support, financial, voluntary, etc.  And improve their reputation.  I can't really disagree with them for these more "base" motivations, having spent most of my career in the non-profit field.  Make hay while the sun shines.  

          If I thought there was an actual chance that the ACLU could be used against Obama, I would probably agree with you.  But the American people arguably never really supported torture or arbitrary detention, and they certainly don't now. They may have been stampeded into superficial support, but it seems like we can actually trust people to do the right thing with good leadership and just a little courage.  Maybe this is just post-election euphoria, but if Rev Wright couldn't sink Obama on the racial issue, it will take a whole lot more than a dancing conga line of civil rights attorneys holding briefcases to undermine Obama on Gitmo.  

          "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

          by ivorybill on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 01:45:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The ACLU isn't the issue (29+ / 0-)

      First, just for the record, there's nothing wrong with the ACLU and none of us here ought to be apologizing for defending the Constitution, especially after November 4th.  I respect your position and most of all I respect your motives and pragmatism.  My anger is not with you but with the Republicans, who can kiss my snow white ass if they want to turn my ACLU membership into a slur.

      The Obama Administration needs to act quickly and decisively to recover as much US moral leadership as it can in the area of human rights. It is hard to imagine two more fundamental rights than the right to contest one's imprisonment, and the right not to be tortured. And the two are entertwined, even if the Magna Carta predates the Convention Against Torture by about 700 years. If you lose rule of law, founded in the right of Habeas Corpus, it's not long before the state feels emboldened to act in a savage fashion against people under its physical control. Erosion of all the other freedoms cannot be far behind.  

      I'm preaching to the converted here, I know.  But this is incredibly important, and it is also good politics.  I venture that a solid majority of Americans do not want their government to torture people, and that "24" style fear-mongering is falling out of fashion. I haven't been able to comment much lately due to travel and work, but recent diaries by Meteor Blades and one other contributor resonate deeply with me.  I have full confidence that Obama will close Guantanamo and reverse the use of torture and rendition.  But he needs to do two other things.  

      He needs to take some public act to repudiate torture and arbitrary detention immediately upon entering office, even if the details come out later.  Perhaps reversing some specific, named executive orders will be a start.  

      He needs to direct his new Attorney General to initiate investigations leading to indictments of those responsible not just for specific acts of torture, but those who created the architecture of torture in the first place. We need to get attorneys who are just as aggressive as Addington and Yoo to not just reverse what they have done, but to hold them accountable for writing legal memos that appear fraudulent on their face, and are in direct contravention of US law.  We can't let torture policy just become a matter of difference of opinion over executive authority - there must be some prosecutorial recourse to bring to justice those who issue legal memos that knowingly and fraudulently justify transparently illegal acts. Yoo knowingly and intentionally wrote a memo granting US federal employees license to commit felonies. We may not ever get Bush or Cheney, but we sure as hell ought to get Yoo.  

      "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

      by ivorybill on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 01:15:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  ACLU and MoveON are Patriotic Organizations (6+ / 0-)

      I am proud of both of them.

      The left is obligated to hold Obama to his promises. The left will be vocal. We are full partners in electing Obama and we won't be squelched or sent to the back of the bus.

      Closing Gitmo is a good idea and the right idea and the mainstream has come to accept this idea of the Left.

      The Left is glad that mainstream America has latched onto the idea of closing Gitmo, but the Left will not let this idea be co-opted.

      When people see that the ACLU and MoveOn are in favor of common sense ideas like this, they can judge the organizations for themselves, and not on far-right propoganda from minority elites.

    •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      under the bodhi tree, SnowItch

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      Proud to support President-elect Obama

      by Lestatdelc on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 01:37:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What bothers me about these ads.... (5+ / 0-)

      ....and the SEIU ad about health care -- they insinuate that Obama won't do the things he's promised and needs to be pushed.  It's insulting, it's way too early for that kind of perception.  But it's what progressives do -- it's been happening all over dKos on cabinet picks that are nothing BUT rumors.  

      Newsflash:  not everything will get done right away.  It's childish to think it will.  However, I fully expect President Obama to lay out what will be accomplished first and the reasons for his priorities.  

      So these ads are dangerous, serve no purpose to "remind" Obama of Gitmo, health care, etc.  I think he remembers, thank you very much.  Let's get smarter about how to support a successful administration. Let's also remember we won this election because Obama in many cases avoided our not-so-sage advice and knew who he was and how he would accomplish.  He is a bigger man, with a bigger mandate going into his Presidency.  

      Can't we learn from his success?  

      •  I heartily disagree (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sevenstars

        I see these campaigns not at reminders to Obama but to the general population at large.

        Imagine that from Nov 4 though February no one says a peep about Gitmo (except maybe us here in our orange cocoon.) Now, imagine Obama trying to keep those promises...the right will raise a hew and cry and will basically write the entire media narrative from scratch, however they wish. Obama will have a fight on his hands.

        Now, imagine the ACLU and moveon and other organizations get their messages out there and keep them out there to the general public between now and the time Obama starts making the changes we need. Who owns the narrative?? By then people will have seen the ads and campaigns and any noise from the right will be just that...noise.

        These campaigns you think are some kind of an affront to Obama are exactly the opposite. They are helping lay the groundwork and keeping control of the entire narrative so that when the time comes, resistance to Obama's actions will be minimal.

        •  Dude, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          geejay

          There's a huge picture of Obama on the ACLU web-ad, just like in all those nasty campaign flyers, and it's addressed to "President-elect Obama".  The guy isn't even in office yet.  I never saw any of this "hold his feet to the fire" stuff for Shrub and his campaign promises, and the annoying thing is that Obama will probably be able to do these things without all this preemptive hoopla.

          And what we have already achieved gives us hope for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

          by TehQuotient on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 06:25:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Guess I've been around media types for too long (0+ / 0-)

            To me it looks like they're making sure Obama is strongly identified with the remedy that will make the country and the world a better place.

            I don't see it as criticism...I see it as an issues campaign, done right. By the time late January comes around and Obama starts being able to act on this issue he will have the wind at his back because of this campaign and others.

            And let's face it...Obama is probably more popular than the ACLU. Using his face and name will do nothing but good for the ACLU in general (which the right likes to kick around.)

            It's doubtful that Obama or anyone in his campaign administration sees these ads as some kind of pre-emptive criticism...I'd bet they see them as part of the overall plan to get things done while maximizing popular support for the issues.

      •  What She Said. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        geejay

        And what we have already achieved gives us hope for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

        by TehQuotient on Mon Nov 10, 2008 at 06:18:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Okay I don't get this at all.... (6+ / 0-)

      So the American Civil Liberties Union should not publicly advocate for civil liberties, because doing so might make it seem like President Obama is "caving in" to the far left?

      What we really need is for Americans to stop thinking of the ACLU - whose entire purpose is to protect constitutional liberties for all Americans! - as a "left wing" organization.  The ACLU have protected the rights of neo-Nazis to hold rallies and march.  They have protected the rights of religious people to practice their religion, as well as the rights of non-religious people to practice no religion.  They have protected the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendment rights of criminal defendants, of both 'street' and 'white collar' varieties.  They have even protected 2nd Amendment rights.

      Safeguarding our constitutional liberties is not a "left wing" idea.  It's an American idea.

      Arguing that the ACLU and keep quiet about issues like Guantanamo Bay is, to me, as UN-American as you can get.

      •  No, but they shouldn't have a huge half (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NCrissieB

        page ad with Obama's face plastered all over it in the NYT "pushing" Obama the day Obama is setting in stone Guantanamo's closing.

        Perception is reality. You know that.

        •  Why not? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          winterbanyan, Scubaval

          What, exactly, is the problem with the American Civil Liberties Union - a non-governmental watchdog group whose role and mandate is to safeguard constitutional liberties - advocating for the closure of Guantanamo Bay and other secret prisons?

          Remember, the ACLU's job is not to work with President Obama, or any other president.  The ACLU's job is to watch government, and be ready to step in as the people's advocate when government violates our constitutional rights.  That mandate does not change when a Democrat is in office.

    •  robert, (0+ / 0-)

      that was my reaction, too.  makes it sound likes the aclu doesn't trust barack to keep his word.  he hasn't been president-elect for even one week, much less assumed the role as president.  if obama doesn't take action on gitmo and torture during his first week in office, then run the ad.  imho.

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