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View Diary: What's the matter with Israel? (209 comments)

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  •  I am comfortable to take the diarist seriously (8+ / 0-)

    We have all followed the news, some of us for decades, and i know which side has my sympathy.

    •  so I guess that means you know (2+ / 0-)

      that one side kills civilians by accident when targeting terrorists, and other side kills security guards by accident while targeting civilians?

      •  if we (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shliapnikov, pgm 01, kyril, chauie

        start comparing deaths here, than its pretty obvious that we would see many times more palestinians killed than israelis. civilians.

        •  please re-read what I wrote (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WeBetterWinThisTime

          My post was about intent, not quantity. The Palestinians INTENTIONALLY kill civilians. Israel kills civilians BY ACCIDENT. Every country in the world that has been involved in a war since planes were invented has killed civilians by accident. Only the Palestinians (and al Qaeda) do it intentionally.

          Quantity is completely irrelevant. I'm sure the USA has killed more innocent civilians by accident in its wars than al-Qaeda has killed intentionally. But surely you wouldn't say al-Qaeda has a greater moral standing than the USA, simply based on quantity of civilians killed?

          •  They do it to each other. Obviously you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril

            either won't admit it or haven't see the truth

            http://video.google.com/...

          •  You're wrong. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Euroliberal, kyril, chauie

            Either you truly do not know or you do not want to know or you know and you are lying.

            •  I'm wrong? on which count? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              unfounded

              Please identify which of my points was wrong:

              1. Palestinians kill civilians intentionally
              1. al-Qaeda kills civilians intentionally
              1. Every country in the world that has been involved in a war since planes were invented has killed civilians by accident
              1. The USA has killed more civilians by accident in its history of wars than al-Qaeda has killed intentionally.

              1 thru 4. You have 4 numbers. Please identify which one is wrong.

              •  Why don't you stop posting for a moment and (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sortalikenathan

                step out of your box and watch this historical evidence?  If you don't then your mind is as set as Palin supporters!

                http://video.google.com/...

              •  You're wrong in stating ... (4+ / 0-)

                that killings of Palestinian civilians by Israeli soldiers and/or settlers are always accidental.

                Question:  Have  you served in the IDF?

                •  please link (0+ / 0-)

                  to an intentional killing of a civilian by IDF.

                  •  I take it then that your answer is no. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    pletzs, kyril

                    Do a google search.  It'll keep you busy for the next week.  Start by looking for the soldiers who refused to continue serving in the occupied territories.

                    •  burden of proof is on you, buddy. nt (0+ / 0-)
                      •  My Reply #1 (5+ / 0-)

                        We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

                        We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people.

                        We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

                        We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

                        We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

                        We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

                        We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

                        We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

                        We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

                        The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

                        http://www.seruv.org.il/...

                        •  Walking in front of a bulldozer is suicide (0+ / 0-)

                          Would you have said the driver of a Vietnam War US troop train was intentionally killing civilians if any trains had actually hit protesters that walked on the tracks to try to stop trains?

                          Just looking at the picture in your wikipedia link, it's quite clear that a bulldozer driver would not see a girl standing in front of it. Any non-basketball playing girl would not be taller than the front thing that actually does the bulldozing(I have no idea what it's called)

                      •  My Reply #3 (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AbsurdEyes, kyril

                        http://www.eurotrib.com/...

                        You're on your own for the rest.  But like I said if you really want to know then set aside about 1 week.

                        •  In regards to Israel's attack on (6+ / 0-)

                          Lebanon in 2006. Human Rights Watch reported

                          Take the example of Manal, a 22-year-old housewife, who had just arrived in Beirut when I met her a few days ago. For nearly two weeks, Israeli warplanes struck Manal's border village of Aitaroun, obliterating homes and families. A Canadian-Lebanese family vacationing in the village was killed; the next day, another rocket destroyed a home 100 meters away from Manal's house, killing at least nine members of a family. So many were killed in her village that she finds it difficult to remember all the names.  

                          When the Israelis dropped leaflets instructing all villages south of the Litani River to evacuate immediately "for your own safety," Manal and dozens of her neighbors set off in three cars, waving white flags. As they left, an Israeli warplane dropped bombs 10 meters in front of and behind the convoy, which raced on. As far too many Lebanese civilians have found, Manal's experience is not exceptional, on the contrary.  

                          Although mistakes are made in the fog of fighting, the pattern of Israeli behavior in southern Lebanon suggests a deliberate policy. My notebook overflows with reports of civilian deaths, day after day.  

                          Israel blames Hezbollah for the massive civilian toll in Lebanon, claiming that they are hiding the rockets they are firing at Israel, in civilian homes, and that they are fighting from within the civilian population. This is a convenient excuse. Human Rights Watch has consistently documented Hezbollah's war crimes, including deliberate and indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians, as well as the taking of hostages. But our investigations have not found evidence to support Israeli allegations that Hezbollah are intentionally endangering Lebanese civilians by systematically fighting from civilian positions. We can't exclude the possibility that it happens - but time and again villagers tell us that Hezbollah is fighting from the hills. Meanwhile, the homes hit by Israel have only civilians in them.  

                          "I'm living in an age that calls darkness light" Arcade Fire

                          by AbsurdEyes on Wed Nov 12, 2008 at 12:32:42 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Every country involved in war has done this (0+ / 0-)

                            It's standard procedure when bombing a country with whom you are at war to drop leaflets urging evacuation, then drop the bomb.

                            Your link is a perfect example of my point. The civilian deaths were COLLATERAL damage. Can you imagine a Palestinian suicide bomber handing a leaflet to a nightclub security guard telling him to evacuate the club before he blows himself up? ROFLMAO.

                          •  C'mon (5+ / 0-)

                            So 'collateral damage' is the buzz word to hide behind for rationalizing state violence?  Israel dropped bombs on innocent people waving white flags trying to flee. Dropping leaflets and then bombing the f**k out of civilian areas does not make it ok.

                            Although mistakes are made in the fog of fighting, the pattern of Israeli behavior in southern Lebanon suggests a deliberate policy

                            "I'm living in an age that calls darkness light" Arcade Fire

                            by AbsurdEyes on Wed Nov 12, 2008 at 12:59:25 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kyril, Yasuragi, Ross From Maryland

                        You might want to read this Pulitzer Prize winning book and find out about the slaughter of these Lebanese Christians by the IDF under the command of Ariel Sharon.

                      •  Another Diary here (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kyril, chauie, Yasuragi

                        Israeli blockade of food to Gaza

                        http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    •  and soldiers refused to serve (0+ / 0-)

                      because they felt they were putting too many civilians AT RISK when attacking terrorists. For the tenth time, every country in the world that has been involved in a war since planes were invented has killed civilians by accident. Every country has put too many civilians at risk. The key difference between all these countries, and the Palestinians, is that in all these countries, the civilians were collateral damage. With the Palestinians, the civilians are the actual target, the intended damage, as opposed to the collateral damage.

                  •  What from the free Palestinian press? (0+ / 0-)

                    Have you heard of Tom Hurndall?

          •  fair point (6+ / 0-)

            its a fair point, but you could also argue that people in the idf are not trained to flesh out the innocent from potential terrorists, and instead liberally use their advanced weaponry on civilian crowds and unhsrmful people (the whole rubber bullets things is ATRCOCIOUS).

            not to mention the humiliation every palestinian goes through at the various checkpoints in their lands at the hands of aged 18-30 idf members.

            i mean we'll never agree fully on this, but what i'm sure we do agree about is that a palestinian state must be formed.

            •  Certainly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              unfounded

              As you said, we'll never fully agree. I wish we already had a Palestinian state (remember Araft was offered one on 95% of West Bank land, and his response was the 2nd Intifada).

              Luckily we have made progress. Palestinian suicide bombers have been almost entirely flushed out, the Saudi Peace Plan is a great overture, and there are discussions between Israel and Syria.

              The rockets have to stop. A Palestinian state cannot be created in Gaza with rockets still flying, because it just creates a state that will fire rockets at Israel. Stop the rockets, and I believe a state will be formed.

          •  You guys are sounding like Republicans (5+ / 0-)

            The Palestinians INTENTIONALLY kill civilians. Israel kills civilians BY ACCIDENT.

            Unless you have proof for your claims of pure innocence, please stop trying to turn this into a flame war. Both sides have reams of documented abuses against civilians recorded by independent observers.  Just one link is all it takes to refute your claim so here.

          •  You're a mind-reader! (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AbsurdEyes, kyril, chauie

            WOW, so now you know the INTENT of people who kill civilians. Incredible.

            All this time I thought it was bad to kill children, but now that your magical abilities prove conclusively that it's NOT INTENDED by Israelis who are actually killing civilians but Palestinians definitely INTEND to kill civilians, that changes everything! Bombs away!

    •  That's your problem - picking a side (0+ / 0-)

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