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View Diary: Morning Reaction: Cheney Ignoring a Law? I'm Shocked! (211 comments)

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  •  sickening. we've been punked. nt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    EJP in Maine, NonnyO, kktlaw

    It would be the first principle of sane kindness that all forms of sacrifice would be avoided, if at all possible."--Adam Phillips

    by andrewj54 on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:08:14 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Warren will be more prone to changing positions/ (27+ / 0-)

      attitudes/messaging, not Obama.

      Spotlight is on Warren, when you think about it.

      Tues. a.m. on Motorized Bikes Diaries What does "one one, one two, one three" stand for?

      by bamabikeguy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:14:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Warren: (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        EJP in Maine, watershed, dakini03

        "Oh, how SILLY of me to have compared gays to PEDOPHILES and INCEST PERPETRATORS, and abortion to GENOCIDE.  What was I THINKING?"

        It would be the first principle of sane kindness that all forms of sacrifice would be avoided, if at all possible."--Adam Phillips

        by andrewj54 on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:26:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's what I would like to hear (7+ / 0-)

          but I'm guessing it won't be anytime soon.  

          Do you think there is any possibility he listen's to Obama's viewpoint?  

          Don't believe everything you think.

          by EJP in Maine on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:50:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Obama's viewpoint about what? (10+ / 0-)

            People don't change their views on homosexuality because someone has a talk with them.

            Homophobia is a phobia, remember.  A deep-seated irrational fear.

            They change through exposure: their kid comes out to them, or the nieghbor's kid, they go see Brokeback Mountain, etc.

            I am concerned that Obama wants to cultivate a relationship with him, as it will then mean he will have to weigh offending him and his kind if he did want to do something progressive.  

            I am not sanguine about this.

            It would be the first principle of sane kindness that all forms of sacrifice would be avoided, if at all possible."--Adam Phillips

            by andrewj54 on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 02:55:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Damn right he's cultivating, on the poor, global (10+ / 0-)

              warming and HIV research for three.

              Decreasing the # of abortions, by throwing out that abstinence financing for instance, will be a 2012 "proof is in the charts" type situation.

              Democrats have to cleave the fundies/evangels, it is pragmatic strategy.

              Warren's "reverse titheing", 90% of his book profits plowed into programs will dull the luster on those jet-plane preachers, like Richard Roberts/Graham's son, and Ceflo Dollar.

              Tues. a.m. on Motorized Bikes Diaries What does "one one, one two, one three" stand for?

              by bamabikeguy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:08:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  if it comes at the cost (4+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                luvmovies2000, EJP in Maine, NonnyO, NCrissieB
                Hidden by:
                The Raven

                that he cannot promote civil rights for me and the rest of the gays because he HASTA win the next election and can't afford to alienate his new BFF's, he is throwing me under the bus.

                Then fuck him.

                It would be the first principle of sane kindness that all forms of sacrifice would be avoided, if at all possible."--Adam Phillips

                by andrewj54 on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:23:34 AM PST

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                •  the audio NPR report was a little more cut (6+ / 0-)

                  and dried, I'm not one to believe polls, esp. that diseccting that comes after voting.

                  But the reporter, besides giving that "proofreading" background on the Obama/Warren relationship, which is the first time I heard it, gave out numbers like how the McCain INCREASED his support over Bush in that constituency, to 27%.

                  This probably can be attributed to the loooooong Dem primary, where Clinton was more favored in that regard, and 27% took it personally.

                  The second insinuation of that report was "this is a states issue" currently, and it will take time to make civil right changes etched on the Federal level, especially by turnover in the Supreme Court.

                  There is no use pushing some things with Roberts/Scalia holding so much sway, be easier when another Thurgood Marshall/William O. Douglas type can be inserted into the mix.

                  Eight years would guarantee more liberal civil rights, and the election nowadays is NEVER over, so pragmatism is the word of the day.

                  Tues. a.m. on Motorized Bikes Diaries What does "one one, one two, one three" stand for?

                  by bamabikeguy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 03:35:19 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  We LGBTs had no seats on Obama's bus (15+ / 0-)

                  Obama is not "betraying" LGBTs by inviting Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inaugural.  Barack Obama is not, never was, and never pretended to be a "pro-LGBT" candidate.  The only "pro-LGBT" candidate in 2008 was Dennis Kucinich, and he never rose above "also ran" status.

                  Obama said from the start that he doesn't support LGBT marriage.  He never promised to end "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" (though I still expect him to).  He did not talk about anti-LGBT hate crimes - more LGBTs have been murdered just for being LGBT, and just since 1970, than were blacks lynched in the whole of the 20th century - nor did he make a single speech against California Proposition 8, Florida Amendment II, or the two other Kick The Local Queer referenda on state ballots this past year.

                  The passage of those Kick The Local Queer referenda has pushed LGBT issues higher on the agenda here at DKos (and I'm glad of that), but their passage hasn't pushed LGBT issues higher on Barack Obama's agenda.  He didn't campaign on those issues, and I don't think and never thought we LGBTs are all that important to him.  He promised us nothing, so he's not betraying any promises by giving us nothing.

                  I supported (and still support) Barack Obama despite his positions on LGBT issues, not because of them.  If you thought he would stand up for LGBT issues, I'm sorry, but you just weren't listening very closely.

                  •  No, I think you're mistaken (16+ / 0-)

                    Obama has always said he was against gay marriage, but he has been a strong supporter of hate crime legislation, and supported legislation in Illinois that banned discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He wants to repeal DODA and even though he is against gay marriage, he did not support the DOMA in 1996 and voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment.

                    •  Massachusetts is the model, and Obama isn't (10+ / 0-)

                      going to reverse the will of the people of the state.

                      Likewise, Prop. 8 was a California issue, he can't send the national guard in to protect anything, it is in the hands of the California gov't, still on going.

                      California has to get the ducks in a row, all Obama can do is add advocates to his cabinet and impose equal treatment/rights in any federal programs.

                      We face Winter in a depression, shelter, food and clothing for ALL is the priority.

                      I agree that Don't Ask Don't Tell will end in a quiet way, and not in 2009, especially while the economy is driving enlistments now.  

                      That Navy Department appointment may give a clue (or not).

                      Tues. a.m. on Motorized Bikes Diaries What does "one one, one two, one three" stand for?

                      by bamabikeguy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 05:27:07 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  he's also for civil unions (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      skrekk, The Raven, bamabikeguy

                      that exactly mirror the rights and privileges of marriage.

                      Now we can get into the "separate but equal" isn't equal argument (and I think in NJ and CT, that's exactly what they've done, and found civil unions wanting, and said you have to go with marriage).  But if the rights and privileges are identical, is separate-but-equal NOT equal?

                      Words mean a lot, I know.  They symbolize what our culture thinks of institutions of all kinds.  But I cannot equate this position with anything the right-wing Christians posit.  It's light years beyond it.

                      Article 6: "...no religious test shall *ever* be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the U.S."

                      by billlaurelMD on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:24:04 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  It's not a matter of rights. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    EJP in Maine, The Raven, bamabikeguy

                    It's a matter of some people wanting to segregate another group of people by denying them the usual and customary services of local and state government.
                    LGBT people aren't their only target. They've been looking to segregate Hispanics and so-called "illegals," as well.
                    Why?  Most likely because segregation has proved a convenient strategy for controlling the "in" group.  Not only is demonizing an "out" group easy but the threat of "contamination" or "excommunication" serves as a powerful, no-cost force for keeping the "in" group under control.

                    What's Warren doing?  He's "protecting" his flock from the wickedness "out there."  How is this different from Bush/Cheney protecting the American people from terrorists?  It isn't.
                    Would we be discussing this pattern much if the spotlight hadn't been thrown on Warren?

                    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

                    by hannah on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 05:23:29 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  You're already under the bus. (8+ / 0-)

                  Rick Warren's one of many bus drivers.
                  Ultimately, we need to persuade bus drivers to stop driving over you.

                  We don't really have the ability to fire all the problem bus drivers and many of the bus companies and their customers love the way they drive or are resistant to acknowledging to what they do wrong and avoid blame, get defensive, and don't take responsibility -- making it hard for them to change.

                  It's probably necessary for some of us to curse out the bus drivers and scream bloody murder.  But it's probably helpful at the same time to have quieter voices that "they" trust saying, "c'mon, they're angry for a reason, we can do better, it won't hurt you."

                •  Ditching DADT (4+ / 0-)

                  and pressuring Congress to get ENDA on his desk for his signature would go a long way toward assuaging a lot of fears.

                  And I'll watch and see if Obama appoints justices at all levels who understand that it's the Constitution, not the Bible, that's the Supreme Law of the United States.

                  "Once you choose hope, anything's possible." ~Christopher Reeve

                  by Cali Scribe on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 05:55:58 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  You have to start from somewhere (8+ / 0-)

              Most whites didn't have problems with racism until some discovered that it was wrong. You act like people do not change. Well they do.

              •  Warren has "preached to the choir" (9+ / 0-)

                any sudden reversal would diminish his audience, potential and collection plate.

                However, once the conversation begins, then moderation might happen, first on getting the hot button abortion issue out of the voting booth.

                That right to choose issue looks to have precedence, according to the early reports.  If that was the issue that cut into the catholic bloc, then acceptance will get the "pro-death", "infanticide" meme out of the conversation next time around, make the Brownbecks/Palins/Hucklebees more "out of touch"...

                Tues. a.m. on Motorized Bikes Diaries What does "one one, one two, one three" stand for?

                by bamabikeguy on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 04:01:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Many whites didn't have a problem with (3+ / 0-)

                racism until they realized that you can't segregate one group without segregating everyone else and that segregation didn't provide a benefit to either side.

                Nevertheless, segregation remains an attractive strategy to people who are into exercising power over other people.  You know, "divide and conquer."
                Some people even go so far as to segregate themselves in "gated communities."  So, they live in fear.  Check out Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" to see his take on it.

                When religious leaders preach about hell-fire they do a lot less damage because being afraid of what happens after you're dead is a lot less debilitating that being afraid of what's down the road or around the bend.

                How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

                by hannah on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 05:30:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  It really doesn't make any difference what (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tomjones, willie horton, NCrissieB

            Warren's viewpoint is.  He's not charged with executing the laws of the land.

            From where I sit, it's really rather simple.  Our political subdivisions are charged with providing services equitably.  If the domestic contracts of some people are recorded as a matter of public interest and usefulness, then those contracts should be recorded for all people who want them to be recorded.  (Let us recall that domestic arrangements used not to be recorded but were still recognized in the common law.  Also, even today a commercial contract need not be written down or recorded to receive legal consideration in a court of law.  So, the whole kerfuffle is really about record-keeping).

            Dick Cheney knows how important records are.  That's why he wants to be able to destroy those related to his official position.

            How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

            by hannah on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 05:09:10 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Excellent point (0+ / 0-)

              Marriage is a civil contract joining two individuals into a family. The parties in a wedding become spouses, with legal rights and duties regarding each other. It is defined, governed, and administrated by civil law. In the USA, we permit these contracts to be executed by churches, ship's captains, mayors, and others; however, the "power vested in them" by the government does not change the civil nature of the contract.

              I believe that any two persons have the right to join themselves into a family and become spouses, no matter what their gender or sexual preference. If any church does not agree, they have the right not to perform such weddings in their church... but not to prevent this civil contract from being executed in another church or by the government.

              (I got married in Russia, where the civil nature of marriage is more obvious: all legal weddings are performed in a government office called ZAGS. Some couples choose to also have a church wedding, but it is legally meaningless: you ain't married without a ceremony at ZAGS).

              I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

              by willie horton on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 01:22:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  More likely: "There are important differences." (7+ / 0-)

          Or ... "It's possible I was wrong; out of respect for YOU, I will rethink that."

          We've gone through similar culture-wide conversions before, on racism and sexism and there's been movement on bigotry against GLB people (not sure about T).  

          Part of how it happens involves unpleasant things like anger, outrage and rocking boats and tearing down walls.

          Part of how it happens involves vulnerability, release, nurturance, and building of bridges and shared spaces.

      •  No, neither he nor any of his wingnut followers (7+ / 0-)

        will ever budge on any positions, although they might become more accepting of Obama as a person via his invitation to Warren. I believe the right wing sees this as Obama's concession to THEM, that Obama is getting some "sense", and will see their righteous ways. Not that it will happen, but that is the tone I hear around here, in Rick Warren's back yard.

      •  exactly....and looking at big picture... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        skrekk, bamabikeguy

        Warren is now forced into appearing more gay friendly.  He is getting mad that people think he hates gay people.  You think Obama didn't know this would happen?  Watch Warren do a meet-n-greet with "the gays" in the near future to prove he isn't a bigot.  Two things will happen.

        1.  The minority of fundies that have functioning neurons will realize the Warren touched a gay dude and didn't get struck by lightening, Gawd or AIDs.  Will highlight the fact that the queer are here...everywhere...and intend to STAY.
        1.  Will illuminate and force the rapture homophobes out in the open in outrage, further identifying and marginalizing them.

        Obama is using Warren in the most masterful way.  I know most of you disagree but I think Warren...doing a fucking forgettable goddamn invocation with no policy power....is being forced to bring the topic of homosexuality into the open.  You thought you homophobes could hide?  Oh no...  What better way to begin to destroy the homophobe sanctuary that is the church than to use the head Fundie Fatass?

        Give a bullshit master a bullshit job.  USE his strength and make it OURS.  Destroy this homophobic bastard from the inside.

        "all your base are belong to us"

        ~Puts your hands up for homemade chili~

        by CWalter on Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 10:51:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, right.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sleepwalkr, NCrissieB

      I guess you think they have been talking about how to take my rights away as a lesbian all these years. I assume they have been talking about how to forge alliances between liberals and religious conservatives around issues like poverty and global warming.

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