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View Diary: The $70-Per-Hour Lie (353 comments)

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  •  Life must be grand there in your Ivory Tower. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    taraka das

    You really should try actual work, real labor. Just for a day, it'll make you appreciate the dividends from your investments that much more.
    I'm sorry, i guess i should know my place massah, i'se gwine bac' to da RACE TO THE BOTTOM now.

    His name was droogie6655321

    by geez53 on Fri Nov 21, 2008 at 10:33:16 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  No. I am a hard working professional (0+ / 0-)

      My typical work week is 60-70 hours at the office. I don't make six figures and I don't get overtime as I am a salaried employee.  

      I required five years of higher education, years of internship and a few decades of experience to reach my professional level.

      I don't get any dividends, but I do have a 401K worth about $80k after 28 years of employment. My house is my only other asset although it lost about 40% of its value in the last 18 months.

      When I wrote of the Auto Industry, I discuss the reality of corporate finance as I understand it. In order for any business to survive they must have income greater than their costs. This is basic Business 101. I agree we should save the Big 3 but the unions need to make major concessions or else the corporations will not survive.

      •  You are wrong about the training (0+ / 0-)

        Find out what kind of training is needed to work in an auto factory.

        Oh, and maybe find out, too, how freakin dangerous it is.

        •  Dangerous? (0+ / 0-)

          WHAT?

          I am sorry but the level of arrogance in that statement is unbelievable!

          Do auto workers have to storm burning collapsing buildings for bullshit pay? Or even nothing?

          Do auto workers have to patrol dangerous streets wearing protection because one of the men got nearly killed yesterday?

          Do auto workers have to face old mineshafts that threaten to break at anytime? Face the possibility of a slow death due to lack of air?

          I am sorry but it gets to a point where defending UAW is like defending a virus.

          •  Lots more dangerous than sitting in an office! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            geez53

            Think about what they do and how they do it.

            Sure, safety has been greatly improved since the first assembly lines, but that's largely been due to worker organization and political pressure.

            I'm appalled that you liken the UAW, workers that are part of our industrial backbone, to a virus. I have a different perspective about which "workers" are like viruses, and they bear more resemblance to the fellow "sweating away" in an office.

            In case you don't know it, firefighters and police officers are generally well paid, relatively speaking. True, they don't have private jets, but what they DO have, is a UNION, in most places.

            And yes, it's goddamn dangerous to work in a place that has constantly running machinery.

            Did you ever do any work like that?

          •  Mine workers (0+ / 0-)

            Of course, I did not mean to ignore the mine worker example that you gave.

            I just felt I made my point.

            Mine workers? UNION.

            •  Damn fine union as well! (0+ / 0-)

              UAW is not the same as other unions fighting to improve safety in my view. It has become out of control.

              Sorry you will not convince me otherwise after their massive effort to get people on the bandwagon of destroying the environment with SUVs.

              •  Eh? What do you think coal mining does? (0+ / 0-)
                •  Powers homes. (0+ / 0-)

                  Sorry I aint on the "Kill Coal" movement either.

                  And last I checked that union was not shoveling funds into "Buy dirty sulfur rich Coal" efforts. Instead using valuable funds to help improve conditions and increase safety.

                  Coal is vital. SUVs are not PERIOD. A modern plant spews FAR less crap per watt of power than a Hummer!

                  •  We need coal to make STEEL (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    geez53

                    It's ridiculous to expand it's use for energy, and thereby make switching to wind/solar/hydrogen more expensive.

                    We need to be planning for the end of coal, too. It's further in the future, but no less inevitable than the end of oil. Expanding the use of it for energy will hasten the day we must find alternatives. Not just for energy, but for manufacturing too.

                    But my point is: Why criticize the UAW about SUVs when the mine workers are working in an industry that contributes to the problems that we must solve as well?

                    Why lash out at the workers who are doing what we wanted them to do? If we want them to do something else, won't they work doing that?

                    •  thank you all for changing my mind (0+ / 0-)

                      up until today, I adamantly did not want to see Big 3 go bankrupt. It would be far too disruptive to the economy when it is already spiraling out of control. But considering the utter lack of willingness of the UAW and their supporters to see reality and to contribute to the solution, perhaps a collapse of the industry is the only thing that will force them into reason. Sad.

                      Thanks guys for helping destroy the economy.

                      •  Greedy MBAs in suits and ties ruined the economy. (0+ / 0-)

                        Workers, as always, are just trying to survive and enjoy some miner level of comfort from their sweat and blood.

                        His name was droogie6655321

                        by geez53 on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 11:18:29 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I agree that the primary blame goes to MBAs (0+ / 0-)

                          All the free-market ideologues who sold us deregulated ponzi scheme "creative financial packages" and inflated asset prices.  This is the "Phil Gramm Economic Meltdown"

                          My concern about UAW is that they don't see the picture and their own best interest.  I can understand the desire to protect agreements that were hard fought. But it doesn't acknowledge the reality of the unsustainable employee costs and will lead to the Big 3 collapse.  And unfortunately the pension structure is crushing the corporations through no fault of the current workers.

                          We are in the greatest "Economic Correction" in the last 75 years.  There are tremendous inbalances in the economy, from unsupported Credit Default Swaps to excessive household credit card debt. A broad spectrum of institutions are going to cut back to survive from corporations to households and governments. These simultaneous contractions will reinforce each other and the economic activity will continue to unravel and shrink at a frightening rate until equalibrium is obtained.

                          One of those highly at-risk inbalances are the auto company employee cost structure and it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to survive intact in this very rough economic situation.  Change is COMING one way or another, and it is in the best interest of the UAW to understand this and control the process to their advantage.

                          I expect that bankruptcy will occur. If chapter 11, the union contacts will be nulled and renegotiated to retain corporate viability. If Chapter 7, the Big 3 will be liquidated with assets broken up. I expect the Chinese will pick up most of the assets at "fire sale" prices. And most of the UAW jobs will be wiped out forever.

                          •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

                            Now that more than half of America is against the bailout due mainly to the actions of the CEOs. It is highly likely that a Chap 11 will happen.

                            Even if they do get one. They will be facing chap 11 next year when things are even worse.

                            UAW how do you expect to compete with a Mini that costs 18 thousand AFTER tariffs and gets extreme MPG while having high resale value?? More SUVS?

                        •  How about UAW suits. (0+ / 0-)

                          The ones that pushed the "Buy American" Buy SUV image that has decimated the industry?

                          level of comfort? Do you have ANY idea about how hard most americans work outside of the auto factories? You make it sound like working the line is like slave labor.

                          It is not and to say so is a damn lie. Conditions in US factories are the envy of the workforce.

                          Do not come and tell me that these people are suffering though the week compared to the rest of the workforce.

                          •  WTF....congrats on your mastery of English so far (0+ / 0-)

                            Now work on the comprehension component. I was speaking for and about all workers.

                            I come from construction, loaded 16 tons of water, sand, portland and lime into a Rab, by hand, everyday, for weeks on end. I've shoveled 350 degree asphalt into a Blaw-Knox paver while idiots on their cell phones drove 50 mph 2 inches from my ass. I broke my back at work and have been just surviving ever since.

                            Bickering amongst ourselves over which workers are being paid too much is just what management wants. The point is that all workers should make more. If you aren't being paid enough for real work, don't be pissed at at the union worker who is. How about the company not making as much profit from your work?

                            His name was droogie6655321

                            by geez53 on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 11:44:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Because the workers failed to act and now want... (0+ / 0-)

                      Want Want..

                      They were the first to see the reports of possible oil shortages in the next century.. Did UAW force GM and Ford to market the electric cars? Did they give a shit? No! They pushed the "Drive SUVs and protect the kids!" image.

                      Frankly I am getting tired of this "Stand strong brothers!" crap. It seems that all you have to be is union to convince so many people here.

                      And I tire of the constant. "If you don't support Bailout you are a union-buster" That is being thrown at people who do not jump on the UAW bandwagon. It is a lie. A lie just as dirty as the one that says Unions are the only reason we are falling behind.

                      Now that it is clearly obvious that UAW supporters just want a bailout for solidarity. I am now in the Anti-Bailout camp.

                      Come back to me when you decide UAW to FORCE GM and Ford to go all hybrid, Electric, and/or 40+ MPG.

          •  industrial = dangerous. always. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            geez53

            Any industrial job is going to have environmental health hazards, be they paint fumes rotting your lungs ever so slowly, noise killing your ears, heavy lifting hurting your back... whatever.

            Why do you think "this plant has gone x days without an accident" signs exist?

            As someone who's worked in both (light-)industrial and office environments: there's no way that your job's shitty moments even equal their job's shitty moments.

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