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View Diary: The $70-Per-Hour Lie (353 comments)

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  •  Extremely specious analogy, (0+ / 0-)

    a reductio ad absurdium not worthy of the seriousness of the topic.

    We should all be very suspicious whenever someone attacks the value of labor, or claims it would be "unreasonable" to hold industry to agreements with labor.

    When has labor ever made such a claim? Why is it always the cost of labor that is suddenly "unreasonable"? Why not the cost of materials, or - wait - management salaries? Even taxes, they bitch about them, but it is never the bete noir that is labor costs (maybe because they know govt will be complicit on their levying and collection anyway.)  

    Time for a change.

    The difference between ignorance and apathy? I don't know, and I don't care.

    by pjeans on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 12:24:33 AM PST

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    •  Because cost of labor is main differential (1+ / 0-)
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      between successful foreigners and bankrupt Big 3. I am not against unions, but asking tax paying Wal-Mart employees (1 million of them) to help bail out UAW employees takes some explanation. So, other than "Big 3 will take USA economy down with them", a good business plan and some sound reasoning are required for Congress to borrow from all taxpayers to fund a single segment (less than 50% capacity) of an industry.

      I voted with my feet. Good Bye and Good Luck America!!

      by shann on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 01:50:39 AM PST

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      •  3 million wage earners, and 20 million more (1+ / 0-)
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        indirect wage earners out of work, won't shop at Walmart or anywhere else.  

        We really are all in this together.

        "Out of Many, One." This is the great promise of our nation.

        by Uncle Moji on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 01:54:43 AM PST

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        •  The numbers get worse with each telling... (0+ / 0-)

          but, I get the idea. Is it enough to extort Congress into a payoff to the auto industry? We will soon find out.

          I voted with my feet. Good Bye and Good Luck America!!

          by shann on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 02:21:58 AM PST

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          •  The finance & credit bailout numbers (0+ / 0-)

            are also getting worse with each telling, and the $700 billion will probably not be enough.  AIG has revised its figures upwards and will continue to revise upward as the market continues to crater.  

            The truth is the AIG bailout is symptomatic of the problems with our economy and the lack of stewardship and leadership and oversight expressed by the executives of the industry (the people making the big bucks) and the Bush administration.  AIG has no idea how much money it needs.  They don't know because they insured loans made by banks (an absolutely insane idea since the business of banks is to secure the loans they make) and more and more of those insured loans are going into default with each passing day.  Yet we, the US government, have decided that to protect banks from collapsing, we must bail them out with funds that have even less scrutiny or strings that the request from the Big 3.

            Believe me, I don't trust the automakers any more than AIG, and I hope Congress or a new Treasury Secretary can restructure the way money is being doled out to the financial markets, but I do believe banks and industry that contains 10% of the US workforce are too big to fail.  What is shocking to me is that both the finance and auto industry CEOs seem confused by the idea that they would be required to produce a credible business plan in exchange for a loan.  Golly, if you went to a bank and asked for a loan for a failing company, you couldn't show up in a limo or come from a $400K business "retreat" and expect to be greeted with open arms.    

            "Out of Many, One." This is the great promise of our nation.

            by Uncle Moji on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 09:56:53 AM PST

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      •  But Wal-Mart (1+ / 0-)
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        Screws their employees by not allowing them to work enough hours to get company health care.  And, they inform their employees to apply for state health care benefits.

        So, is it OK for state governments to subsidize Wal-Mart and it is not OK for the Big 3 to ask the Federal government for a loan?

        Not sensical.

        •  True, Walmart is not fair to their employees.... (1+ / 0-)
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          But Walmart employees are tax payers and their increased debt or taxes (no other option) will go to the UAW employees. Yes, some people see this as fair.

          I voted with my feet. Good Bye and Good Luck America!!

          by shann on Sat Nov 22, 2008 at 05:07:42 AM PST

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      •  major cause of Big3 distress (0+ / 0-)

        Actually, Germans and Japanese pay as well as US at home. The real burden of the Big 3 is the cost of medical insurance and pensions (including retirees) which they have to pay while most of the costs are borne by society as a whole everywhere else. Also everyone else gets VAT refuded on exports, while imports all have to pay the tax. This constitutes a huge tariff for us and a huge export subsidy for every where else. Wage differences among rich countries hardly matter. Of course, in time, China will eat everybody's lunch and he will have to pay for thood.    

      •  who pays for bailouts? (0+ / 0-)

        Don't you realize that taxpayers don't for deficit spending by Congress or money creation by the Fed? Ever. We haven't paid off the national debt since Andrew Jackson. Hamilton told us a national debt was a blessing. Exactly right, Jackson left office after destroying the Bank of the United States and restoring sound currency with the sub-treasury system and the specie  circular (everything had to be paid for in in silver coins (overpriced gold disappeared, be too valuable to spend until 1849) -- none of those damned banknotes except the state wildcat bank notes which one had to threaten the seller with violence to make him accept - or interest bearing notes of hand from trustworthy citizens) -, paying off the debt, and balancing the budget and in 1837 the nation plunged into a horrible panic and depression caused by hard money. Today Treasury bills pay little interest (the discount rate is 1 percent and banks can borrow as much as they want from the Fed. But they just buy Treasuries, they are to afraid to lend money or T-bills even to other banks. The Treasury is issuing piles of T-bills, and the money markets of the world say "More! More! For God's sake More! Thank God we are so broke, or their would be any securities that anyone would buy, and the price is right for us -- much cheaper to carry a debt of a Trillion at 1.5% intewrest than 500 billion at 6%. When the U.S. with its wonderful credit finally guarantees all bank deposits and all collateral backed bonds, and every corporation's commercial paper, and securitized credit card debt ... the mind boggles! Value is in the mind of the beholder, and Barack can rush a few more inaugural balls into production (why should they they both be on the same night?) The only limit on the wealth of tomorrow is our lack of imagination and greed today. Why shouldn't everyone own a stunning portrait of Obama facing right and left, and center layered in pure 24k gold at $19.95 (plus shipping and handling (with white cotton gloves!) made by the real Mint. (Because of the extraordinary demand there may be a slighgt delay in delivery by the USPS (Correction: there will be a considerable delay). All will be well in the Spring.

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