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View Diary: Anti-Prop 8 backlash changes minds (419 comments)

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  •  You can jiggle numbers to say anything (0+ / 0-)

    however, when it counted, voters said "YES".  Until those voters press their reps to vote again, it means nothing to recount in hindsight.  For peronal reasons, I am against Gay marraige, however, if it were to become the law of the land tommorrow, I would be fine with it.  If Prop 8 is to be addressed again, the movement must follow the Obama model:

    1.  Dont concentrate on the gay part (like being black), concentrate on the human dignity and civil rights part.  I will tell you that the gay part turns voters off, and they cant see past that.  
    1.  Stop being so belligerent, USE the system.  Get in peoples face, but in a respectful and professional way.  The tone now is of DEMAND, and you wont get far with that.
    1.  get the high visibility people to get off their ass and speak out.  I am not talking about Ellen Degeneres, I am talking about the straight politician (hopefully a religious politician).  Play on his "hate the sin, but love the sinner" sense of fair play.

    As a heterosexual, I could juice this up and get it on the ballot again.  Hire some non gay people to get the word out, some juiced up ad agaencies.  Attack one or two states at a time.  IN THE SOUTH!!  Spend the money to focus on how far we have come, and what change really mean to regular (gay) people.
    Too much effort is being put to ONE state.  Does every gay person move to California?  As heterosexuals show the serene families during an election, show thw stable gay couple minding their own business.  You will never get all the religious whackos, but focus on the sense of fair play as well.  FOCUS ON AMERICANISM and PATRIOTISM!!!

    Just how I would approach it.  Good luck!!

    •  I'm sick of... (12+ / 0-)

      People telling me to stop 'focusing on being gay'.  I will not do that.  If that means my struggle will be harder and longer, so be it.  It also means it will be truer, and more likely to last and not be rescinded.

      I am gay.  We need to get people used to that and to get past all the religion-based bigotry that they cling to, or else nothing will change.  No matter what fancy jingoism you dress it all up in.

      Gay, straight, black, white...
      Marriage is a civil right!

      by joehoevah on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 02:33:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  YES! Remember what Harvey said... (5+ / 0-)

        The anger and the frustrations that some of us feel is because we are misunderstood, and friends can’t feel that anger and frustration. They can sense it in us, but they can’t feel it. Because a friend has never gone through what is known as coming out. I will never forget what it was like coming out and having nobody to look up toward. I remember the lack of hope–and our friends can’t fulfill that.

      •  The problem was they didn't focus on gay people (13+ / 0-)

        didn't try to tell the stories of gay families. The campaign against prop 8 hid gay people and left their identity to the perverted imaginations of fundamentalists.

        •  Youre right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I meant, focus on families, unions of two people.  I would suggest against emphasizing the gay part, but more on we are who we are, and we are no threat to you

          •  I would emphasize FAMILIES. (1+ / 0-)
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            "Meet Mrs. Smith. Here's her house, her three children, her white picket fence, and her wife. Here's why marriage is important to them..."

            The No on 8 campaign hid the gay people entirely and went with abstract phrases like freedom and discrimination and abstract slogans like "Unfair. Wrong."

            Unfortunately, you're right that any hint of sex turns people off to gay rights. I don't like it, and it shouldn't be true, but that's the broken world we live in. Which made that one Courage Campaign ad -- filled with penis jokes and dirty humor -- particularly unforgivable.

            So yeah -- introduce people to gay people's families; play up their children and mortgages and play down the sex stuff.

        •  Exactly. (10+ / 0-)

          There were commercials from No on 8 that dared not even mention what the proposition was about.  The word "gay" became the new "Voldemort".

          We can't just hide in the shadows and keep our fingers crossed that straight people won't notice that we're gay.  All that does is send the message that we have something to be ashamed of... that we're not quite certain that we deserve these rights we're asking for.

      •  You cannot escape religion (0+ / 0-)

        The country was FOUNDED on freedom of it, and it has been  taken hostage by the majority, and used for its own purposes.  Martin Luther King got past the Black part, and focused on the HUMAN part.  I understand your frustration, BUT, in this country, you have to learn and know the game, then PLAY it.  Railing against the machine in and of itself just makes for high blood pressure. Gte organized, get smart.  Does anyone actually beleive that poiticians really think what they say?  They take part of what they think we want to hear, and create a narrative.  For Prop 8 to pass, it has to be packaged differently.  

        •  We disagree. (7+ / 0-)

          I do not think that gay rights depends on an attitudee of internalized homophobia, sorry.  No amount of talking will convince me otherwise.  

          Gay, straight, black, white...
          Marriage is a civil right!

          by joehoevah on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 02:56:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Read the story you're commenting on. (3+ / 0-)

          Railing against the machine in and of itself just makes for high blood pressure.

          Um, I don't know if you read the actual story that this is about, but railing against the machine in and of itself has already changed enough minds to defeat Prop 8 if the vote were today.

          •  You could have run a TV ad (0+ / 0-)

            Lets face it, Americans are whimscal.  I read the diary, and still think that an 8% change is nothing.  Its too little too late, and a guess at best.  What I am saying is, see what changed those peoples minds, see if its a possible mantra for your cause.  Polls vary from one speech, to one debate, to one tv ad to another all the time, so I wouldnt put too much hope in this fluctuation.  If you will remember, gay marraige WAS legal before.  So much for polls and the fickle nature of American people

            •  A guess? (1+ / 0-)
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              Its too little too late, and a guess at best.

              It is all the evidence that is available. If you refuse to entertain the best that the evidence can offer, flawed as it may be, you can't call yourself a member of the reality-based community.

            •  You are talking to gay people (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              And your lofty BS is getting more than insulting.

              As if you would believe gay people wouldn't be familiar with all of the ins and outs of Prop 8.

              Since you have stated your position against Gay marriage and your advice is bordering on nonsense, perhaps you don't have anything else to add to the discussion that is meaningful.

              Looks more like someone interested in stirring the pot and trying to start arguments more than having any kind of meaningful discussions.


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              by PaintyKat on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 08:12:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  No, it most absolutely was not. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PaintyKat, katynka, joehoevah

          This country was not founded on freedom of religion. Eleven years after the founding of this country, the adoption of the current Constitution and the Bill of Rights ADDED the freedom of religion.

      •  And how long and hard (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pender, joehoevah

        have we been working and cajoling our gay brothers and sisters to come out of the closet, proclaim their identities proudly, put rainbow stickers on their cars and hold hands with their significant others in public!

        It gives "get used to it" a lot more impact.

        (-7.75, -7.69) No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up - Lily Tomlin

        by john07801 on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 02:52:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You've just described the "No On 8" Campaign... (4+ / 0-)

      And it lost. The main difference between the campaign and these protests, the thing that people are really talking about, is that it shows the ACTUAL PEOPLE who are harmed by this invasive and unjust proposition.

    •  The tone should be demand... (6+ / 0-)

      People should demand their rights when fundamental rights are being denied because people see them as "different" and want to spread hate. I'm sorry, but there is no logical or real reason to be against giving homosexuals the right to marry and access to all rights of heterosexual couples. The only reason is hatred, intolerance, and homophobia.

      Do people have a right to be hateful, intolerant, and homophobic? Yes, they do, I guess (though I think it sucks). But our laws and governments don't have the right to suppress the rights of minorities simply to feed that hatred. That's what Civil Rights movements are all about.

      The gay part? Seriously? Being gay is a part of who a gay American is, just like being black, white, male, female, straight, Mormon, whatever... Gay folks shouldn't have to be ashamed -- and they certainly shouldn't have rights denied! -- because people are hateful, turned off, or uncomfortable. Part of this fight is forcing people acknowledge that!

      •  Right to be hateful, intolerant YES,!!?? (0+ / 0-)

        That is reflected in EVERY election cycle.  People HAVE the right to hate and be intolereant in their views.  As with laws, they too are voted on, and reflect the same rights to be ignorant, hateful, and intolerant.  Laws?  Please!!  There is a law that says crack cocaine buys you more prison time than normal cocaine, and that law is targeted at blacks. the law is subject to whom ever is interpreting it.  The law said for years that minorities could vote, but they were still denied that for years.Until they changed their message, thats when the right was enforced.   I wish you luck on the DEMAND part.  I have been in business and Government, as well as dealing with people for over 50 years, and for the most part, demand gets you nothing (although it might sound good) most of the time.  Millions of voters voted AGAINSt Obama because he was black, BUT, they have that right in this country. Like any war, your fight is against hearts and minds, and not the law.  

        •  Really, demands get you nothing? (3+ / 0-)

          Tell that to Rosa Parks.  You're 100% wrong.  Complacency is what gets you nothing.  "Please sir, might I have a seat at the table next supper?" gets you nothing.  Demand is the only thing that works in struggles for equal rights.  Look it up, historical examples abound the world over.  

          The people of South Africa, in struggling against apartheid, were too demanding, eh?  The people of India, under Ghandi, too pushy - they mentioned being Indian too much, too.

          This can't be what you really believe.

          Gay, straight, black, white...
          Marriage is a civil right!

          by joehoevah on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 03:42:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Demand gets you nothing.. (0+ / 0-)

            Does anyone even know the true story of Rosa Parks?  Thats not a good example.  She didnt demand a seat, she was placed on the bus as part of the cicvil rights movement to make a statement.  the protest lines and boycotts were already set up before she did it.  Its called "stagecraft".  I never said be complacent, I just said focus your message to appeal to a broader audience.  The people of South Africa got NOTHING by demanding from the Government.  South African activists were able to get outside forces on their side, and once the message was picked up by the international community, and economic boycotts began,  thats what effected change.  The simple demands got nowhere. Nelson Mandela spent years in prison and he was demanding. Pick better tools to fight your fight is all I am saying.  the message currently being used changes almost NO minds  

            •  Right, because protests and sit-ins and all... (2+ / 0-)

              The other tactics of the Civil Rights movement weren't centered around a very basic, intrinsic DEMAND for equal rights?  

              You are wrong, get over it.  Move on.

              Gay, straight, black, white...
              Marriage is a civil right!

              by joehoevah on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 03:52:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I disagree. (2+ / 0-)

              the message currently being used changes almost NO minds  

              First of all, minds are being changed. 8 percent, if it's actually true, is nothing to sneer at. Second of all, and more importantly, I think you've found a fallacy on WHY more minds aren't being changed:

              a) I don't think it's because the gay community is being "too demanding" -- if anything, the 8 percent shift highlighted in this article, suggests that formal protests and DEMANDS are actually working to a degree.

              b) I don't think you can fight hatred with logic OR good PR. If people are determined to be hateful -- so hateful they actively wish people wouldn't have basic rights -- then they're going to be hateful. So, there are going to be many minds that cannot be changed. (Luckily, when we look at age ranges, this becomes better, since those in the younger generation are more likely to be gay friendly. Though it definitely sucks that a population of people has to basically wait for bigots to begin to die out to get a fair shake.) We can, however, work on the ignorant and the complacent.

              c) The people we need to target -- the ignorant and the complacent -- aren't those who are leading the charge against gay marriage. They're those who it doesn't affect, who aren't really against it, but who don't get why it's such a big deal.

              Standing up and demanding it (with dignity -- I'm not talking about being raging assholes or imbeciles here) is the best way to target those people and make them see why it's a BIG DEAL.

              •  This whole argument of "stop demanding" demanding (0+ / 0-)

                doesn't change any minds.

                And focus on the family sounds like rightwing BS.

                Sounds a lot like the rightwingers who claim the majority is against abortion rights too.  And I don't want to sidetrack the discussion in any way, but I just saw a comparison to the righties when they discuss abortion and the majority and the advise being dispensed by AndyatKos about civil rights for gays.

                Sit down, shut up or you will end up like Nelson Mandela.  He demanded.  That is about as rightwing as it gets.


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                by PaintyKat on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 08:48:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  I suspect there are thousands of folks here who (0+ / 0-)

              know the true story of Rosa Parks besides myself.  So get off your high horse and since you are against gay marriage, why in the hell would you even try to talk down to folks here and ask your ignorant questions.

              Quite likely the folks here with the most at stake will be the most effective in developing effective strategies for overcoming the issues so much more than someone who is against those rights.

              Folks who are actually having their civil rights denied are acutely more aware of the "game" as you describe this fight for civil rights.

              There is nothing wrong with stagecraft at all.  I defer to the commenter who was quoting Harvey Milk on the issues because he gave his life to the battle and his wisdom can help win the war.


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              by PaintyKat on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 08:43:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  What personal reasons could you possibly have (3+ / 0-)

      for opposing my right to marry?

    •  Wow, were you running the No on 8 campaign (0+ / 0-)

      because I swear that is exactly what they did. It was really impressive and successful... (insert snark here)

      "I didn't bring you all the way to America to be quiet" - my father

      by Nazakhstan on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 07:44:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What election focuses on serene families? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Activists help win election.  Sitting serenely in front of a camera or television doesn't win elections.

      If negroes had minded their own business instead of engaging in the civil rights movement, we wouldn't have integrated schools, interracial marriages, and all of the rights for African Americans that allowed us to elect the first African American President.

      Gay rights is Americanism and Patriotism.  Those terms don'[t apply to only some of the citizens, but all of the citizens.

      Without gay activism there will be no progress.  So you be as serene as you want, but your advice is useless and unkind.



      WWYTR? Voting, contributing, supporting, and electing Democrats

      by PaintyKat on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 08:07:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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