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View Diary: Anti-Prop 8 backlash changes minds (419 comments)

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  •  mormon bashing? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    easong, DaleA, MahFellaMerkins, Pender

    Ha! From what I've seen we've taken it very easy on the mormons.
    I don't think you can seperate the church from it's members.  If your a member of the church and you tithe to the church you are as responsible as every other member of the church.
    The mormons pushed this through and now We are pushing back!

    •  how about some Catholic-bashing too then? (5+ / 0-)

      They pushed this hard, and are responsible for a much larger total share of the vote (40% of the yes vote was Catholics).

      "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

      by Delirium on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 03:13:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Christin

        They are just as guilty, but they are bringing themselves down. And they didn't cross the state line.

        •  true (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          texcubsf

          I tend to consider them a bigger but less visible problem though. The Mormons are very vocal, but tiny in size, and have little network in the state, so had to resort to TV ads. The Catholic church was less visible with being out in public and paying for TV ads, but mobilized a huge number of people to go vote through its churches, though, simply because there are so many Catholic churches in every corner of California, and the bishops and priests were very strongly in favor.

          "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

          by Delirium on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 03:27:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Mormons raised 77% of the funding! They are a (8+ / 1-)

            HUGE PROBLEM.

            •  And 80-90% of the ground canvassers (7+ / 0-)

              Per the NY Times. Screw 'em.

            •  don't call a religious group (0+ / 0-)

              and existential HUGE PROBLEM - it's bigoted and raises some bad historical parallels.

              •  A troll-rating? WTF? (0+ / 0-)

                They are a huge problem, as is every other organization that deliberately dedicates itself to the dehumanization and humiliation of a helpless minority.

                And so are their apologists. Like you.

                It's no more bigoted to say this about the LDS church than about the KKK.

                •  if you're equating a church (0+ / 0-)

                  with the KKK, you've got some issues.

                  That's not progressive.

                  •  KKK was a religious movement (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Pender
                    •  well ok if you want to stretch definitions (0+ / 0-)

                      It wasn't a church, it was a racist movement that adopted some trappings of religion.

                      The Church of Latter Day Saints is a church -- it's a weird one, but we have freedom of religion in this country and ideally we'd have freedom from discrimination on basis of such.  I think their leadership made a huge mistake getting so involved with this however we shouldn't sink to their level and start casting aspersions on Mormons -- that's discriminatory

                      •  i am really not going to argue with you (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Pender

                        over spliting hairs. we are discussing two organizations that used religious doctrine to justify discrimination against a a minority group. whether you consider those prior doctrines valid is irrelevant

                        just wanted to point out that you were making a point that was not historically valid. which you now, even while splitting hairs, admit your religioous argument is not a valid distinction.

                        that one is based on religion (Mormons) (and therefore it's okay) and the other is not (the kkk, and therefore not okay).

                        i know the history really well on this. many of the arguments you are making right now are the exact same arguments that were made regarding Jim Crow and slavery.

                        In fact, most of the arguments whether religious or other wise (including the opressors being the ones being attacked for their "rights" are verbatim the reaction of the south to Brown v Board). they are arguments  for the majority discriminating against the minority- if you look at the language choice- it could be lifted verbatim. In many cases all you would have to do is replace the word black with gay.

                        as a student of history the sad part is to watch people use the same sorts of arguments over and over again. it remains me of why history isn't linear, but circular. it's human nature to miss the lessons of history. thus like you, we repeat them.

                        •  no, you're talking about a political movement (0+ / 0-)

                          and a church - entirely different things.  Plenty of mormons out there who don't agree with the church's every stance.  

                          And actually, you are the one splitting hairs or whatever the opposite of that is -- the KKK wasn't a religion, mormonism is.  You can't lump them together as the same thing.

                          •  You still pay a yearly tithe to the organization (0+ / 0-)

                            that intentionally stripped hundreds of thousands of people of their basic civil rights. You're all guilty.

                          •  And you pay taxes (0+ / 0-)

                            You're guilty too, bud.

                            Much more guilty than the mormons - the voters did have their say at the end of the day, not to say that I agreed with them.  You are scapegoating the mormons for a much bigger problem and then attempting to blame them as a class.  

                          •  Analogous how? (0+ / 0-)

                            How are my tax dollars supporting the de jure subjugation of an oppressed minority? Because that's what your donation to the LDS church does.

                            the voters did have their say at the end of the day, not to say that I agreed with them.

                            Well? Do you agree with them?

                            You are scapegoating the mormons for a much bigger problem and then attempting to blame them as a class.

                            77% of the funding and an even greater proportion of phone bankers and canvassers. This is not scapegoating; it is reality. The LDS church didn't have to make itself into a political machine of bigotry, but it did, and now it will suffer the consequences.

                          •  there is no legal force requiring you to give to (0+ / 0-)

                            a church that you k now disciriminates. there is the force of the state requiring we pay taxes. your logic is lacking here. but i think the illogics is what youhve left to justify your own behaivor.

                          •  this is why I don't want to argue with you (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Pender

                            the minute the mormons as an organization became both the monetary financiers and foot soldiers for Yes on 8, they lost any right to claim they were being attacked for religion. you can not both act as a political group and a religious one because you can not use that faith as a shield to argue you are above the political. once you are involved in the politics- you are fair game.

                            the Mormons became a political organization. this is why they are now under investigation by the state of California (as of this morning) for their role in Prop 8. This is why NY Times did a reporting about them representing something like 80 percent of the GOTV for Yes on 8. The Church organized this. they sent out a letter specifically telling its members to do so. But for the manipulation of using the fact they also a religion- this would bring up questions about their non profit status.

                            There is no substantive difference other than the veneer of more religiousity (in your mind) for the Mormon Church with regard to Prop 8 and something the KKK would have done down South.

                            Read up on the history of the KKK movement. Most of the hate groups out there are heavily based on religious doctrine.  You can google some of their sites online. look at their quoting of scripture.

                            One of my little test by the way of people's prejudices is where they can not see how much they are a like another group they don't want to be associated with.

                            The KKK's central difference is that they advocated violence as well as political control over blacks. They do not differ in the use of religion to justify their position. Your claim that because the Mormons are an "official" religion changes nothing. It's a form over substance argument under the circumstances.

                            The fact you need to pretend that there is some big difference from the fact that both organizations are using religion to define their position on a political movement is where you show your own inability to frame this as it is.

                          •  Your comments (0+ / 0-)

                            are uniformly well thought out and well said. I'm glad you're around.

                        •  Thank you, and well said all around. (0+ / 0-)

                          The LDS Church voluntarily became the chief political proponent of bigotry. Now many of its members are trying to escape the politics by hiding behind the religion.

                          Sorry, but a religion that puts itself into the political sphere is not off limits to political engagement. Holding the LDS Church responsible for their hate and bigotry in this case is no worse than holding the Republicans for the Bush presidency. It's accountability, and if the LDS Church didn't want the attention, it shouldn't have gotten involved.

          •  More work there... (0+ / 0-)

            They require a lot more work.  But I can see more hope working with the Catholics than I can with the mormons.

          •  Not so much (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            unfounded, AmericanRiverCanyon

            In fact, many priests opted to not follow the instructions to talk about Prop 8 or urge people to vote for it. A very significant number remained silent.

            What's also noteworthy is that Catholics as a whole don't automatically follow what our Bishops (or even priests, whom we actually know) tell us to do. On topics such as birth control, the last stats I saw said that over 90% of Catholics support its use and availability.

            Not to let the hierarchy off the hook, though - not at all. I wrote over at Street Prophets asserting that the most consistent position for a Catholic to take would be a NO vote on 8. The Bishops had no business getting involved in that proposition as they did, and their attempts to influence the vote were shameful.

            I think the Mormon Church was way more effective in mobilizing people to vote and contribute in the manner prescribed. I'm not nearly as familiar with the Mormon Church, but know quite a few adherents at work, and we've even talked about how they're more homogeneous, hold more common views, and are more likely to vote consistently than we Catholics ever have.

            On topics such as poverty, social justice, immigration, etc. - I wish Catholics would vote more consistently and pay more attention to what our hierarchy says. Can't have it both ways, I guess.

            "I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.

            by paxpdx on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 08:18:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yeah, they're definitely more homogenous (0+ / 0-)

              I think politically it matters less though, except in Utah, because they're homogenous but nearly non-existent. Catholics are less homogenous, but very numerous; if you consider "ultra-religious, conservative Catholics" as a sub-group, they themselves are larger than the entire Mormon population by a number of times.

              Overall, Mormons were around 2% of the Yes vote in California, versus about 40% for Catholics and somewhere around the same for Protestants. If it were Mormons vs. everybody else, it'd go nowhere, much like alcohol prohibition (which many Mormons are still big on) goes nowhere. So I tend to find it odd to blame them---when something passes with a majority, I usually blame the majority, not a tiny minority that's a convenient scapegoat.

              "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

              by Delirium on Tue Nov 25, 2008 at 03:50:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  We Expect the Pope to be a Dope (0+ / 0-)

        After all, he used to run the Inquisition before he was pope. Besides, I had many Catholic friends some of whom are gay actively fighting Prep 8. I can't say the same about the Mormons I know.

        The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

        by easong on Mon Nov 24, 2008 at 04:12:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  That's like saying one Democrat is responsible (2+ / 0-)

      for the views and votes of every other Democrat.

      Churches can be big tents, the same way political parties can be. I know many good people who go to churches that may have intolerant policies, and people become members of religious communities for a variety of reasons.

      I don't see how Mormon bashing helps. There's just no need to meet intolerance with more intolerance.

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