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View Diary: U.S. worker can be replaced in favor of H1-B foreign worker (205 comments)

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  •  My favorite H1-B story (13+ / 0-)

    10 or 12 years ago, a Chinese H1-B working at Wright-Pat AFB in Dayton OH was arrested for downloading classified Air Force data and shipping it off to Beijing. The contracting agency acknowledged that it may have made a mistake hiring a Chinese national for a sensitive position but he was willing to work so damn cheap! they couldn't resist....

    You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

    by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 07:40:16 AM PST

    •  Well he can only be paid the higher of the (0+ / 0-)

      prevailing wage or the normal wage for the position so that story is interesting.

      Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

      by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 07:41:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Prevailing wage is a joke (9+ / 0-)

        There are loopholes which makes "prevailing wage" meaningless.

        •  What loopholes? (0+ / 0-)

          Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

          by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 07:47:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  loopholes (5+ / 0-)

            Too many to list all of them...but just a couple...

            There is not a "prevailing wage", there are four of them, from "entry level" to "fully competent" and employers layoff fully competent workers for entry level ones (but expect the H1Bs to be competent...even if they are not).

            There are seven or more different ways to calculate prevailing wage, and employers can choose whichever is lower, or even claim none apply and come up with their own.

            Most H1Bs are now contract workers, so they are paid by the contract agency based in India (or even a long chain of contract agencies) and wages paid are impossible to verify.

            The prevailing wage averages low priced workers in small companies with the higher wages in Fortune 500, but Fortune 500 employ most H1Bs, taking advantage of the lower average.

            •  I checked on the website (0+ / 0-)

              and it doesn't say "entry level" to "fully competent". Where did you get that?

              What ways are there to calculate the prevailing wage other than getting one from the state workforce agency?

              Why are wages paid impossible to verify when they have to be paid as employees?

              Prevailing wages are regional. Do most H1B visas come from the region where the Fortune 500 (contract worker company?) company headquarters?

              Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

              by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 10:37:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  false (4+ / 0-)

                it's in the details, there are 4 levels of salary but it is tied to the job.  So, they displace a high level experienced person and rewrite the job description, which often that highly skilled person has to train, sometimes for over 1 year.

                Michigan Law Journal article.

                •  Thanks. (5+ / 0-)

                  You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                  by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:04:42 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Excerpt: (6+ / 0-)

                  SoftPac, an organization of computer programmers which was formed to lobby against the H-1B program, ran a "sting" operation to show how easy it was to secure approval from the DOL for an obviously-invalid LCA. The DOL approved SoftPac’s application for a visa for a programmer who would be paid only $5.00 per hour.

                  You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                  by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:30:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Please quote the part where it (0+ / 0-)

                  says "fully competent" to "entry level" I can't see that part.

                  It's interesting that a highly experienced person can be replaced with someone who only has 1 year of training. That sounds pretty entry level to me.

                  Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                  by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:36:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why is it so important to you to denigrate (4+ / 0-)

                    the experience of others?

                    Are you saying that you couldn't train a new bar admittee to be effective in your little corner of the legal world in a year? Is your knowledge so unsystematic that it can't be organized into a course in that period of time? And are you contending that that reflects well on you or your profession?

                    You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                    by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:46:00 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What appears to be important (0+ / 0-)

                      is to denigrate and vilify foreigners. Something that makes you folks shitty. Just like the shitty folks who said the same things about the Jews, Italians, Irish, Poles, etc...

                      What appears to be important is to bitch about Indians when the H1B program doesn't even encompass 1% of the IT jobs.

                      As far as my corner of the world it takes more than a year to get through one case so it'd be difficult to train someone in a year who could then fully replace me and do it all by themselves.

                      Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                      by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:49:31 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wow! Hair up your ass, or what? (5+ / 0-)

                        (a) The main argument against H1-Bs is that they are exploiting the experience that could be leveraged by our fellow-citizens - you know, the folks who will be living in our retirement village and whose kids will be keeping our life-style rosy - not by being smarter - or dumber - than our fellow-citizens but by accepting less desirable working conditions than they.

                        (b) I am not impressed by your description of your field and your peculiar competence (experience?) nor am I ashamed or embarrassed that I could take a new graduate - American or otherwise - and make him a hell of a developer in the particular little corner of IT I am currently operating in, whereafter I could move on to another position exploiting that or another area of my expertise.

                        You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                        by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:03:12 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  BS (4+ / 0-)

                        There are about three million IT jobs.  The H1B quotas were 60,000 for many years, then 200K for several years, and now 80K plus unlimited for students.  Since H1B is good for six years and then an unlimited number of yearly extensions until the green card application comes through, there are at least one million H1Bs here at any one time.  One third at a minimum.

                        And anyone at a Fortune 500 can see with their own eyes that a third to half of IT people are now H1Bs.  My last job I was the only American in a room with 90 IT workers.

                        In addition there are an unlimited number of L1 visas. This was not frequently ued before, but now that employers see how it is even easier to abuse than H1B, there are more and more of them, and they may soon exceed

                        And then the F4s are coming with foreign students displacing American students in IT-related university programs as Americans see their parents replaced by cheap labor and refuse to allow the same to happen to them.

                        •  3 million IT jobs? (0+ / 0-)

                          Show me. Just tossing in a few IT jobs into the DOL search shows more than that.

                          The H1b program is limited to 58.5 (excluding Chile and Singapore) per year. It hasn't been 195 since 2003 and those on H1Bs since and before then would have, or will so, run out of time on their H1B.

                          There are an addition 20K for those who graduated from a US university with a Master's or higher.

                          Assuming that 1/3 to 1/2 of H1Bs are in the IT field you are still talking about single-digits percent-wise.

                          L1 visas are for intracompany transferees. Hard to see how an American can claim that job as theirs..

                          F4s? An F1 visa is a student visa for any kind of school not just the IT field. Even if 10% of student visas went to the IT field you're talking about 50K visas.

                          They can get a work card but that doesn't guarantee a visa - H1B or otherwise - after school but I'm not sure why you think it's unlimited as it has an expiration date.

                          Looking at the office of immigration statistics only 11000 people were granted permanent residency through employment based petitions in the bachelor's degree category and 21000 were granted for those holding an advanced degree.

                          That's far less than what you seem to be implying.

                          Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                          by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:27:19 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  lessee (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            The main study was here, done back in 1999, which found about two million.  That was followed by  a major recession and the meltdown, which dumped huge numbers on the street.  So we didn't expand by fifty percent since then.  So my three million is generous.

                            Those H1Bs whose six years was up are now either green cards or still on annual extensions, except for those who went back to India to head up the offshoring of entire operations.

                            The L1s have no rules and less oversight, and normal contract programmers are treated as if they were executives and elibible and no one gives a damn (except for folks like you who are promoting it all).

                          •  Why not just go to the DOL (0+ / 0-)

                            site and use their numbers rather than a study that's nearly 10 years old?

                            The L1's are only for execs/managers and specialized workers that have skills relevant to the specific company's product or services. General programmers wouldn't fit that visa.

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 04:06:10 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  More BS (4+ / 0-)

                            I actually work in IT beside the L1s and can see that the rules you talk about are never enforced, and so the L1s are normally plain old contract programmers and business analysts and testers, just like the H1Bs.

                            So don't try to peddle rules that you know very are never enforced.  Not to those of us who are sitting right there beside them.

                          •  You're confused. I'm not promoting anything. (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm tired of punk ass anti-immigrant people who claim people are taking their jobs when it's not their freaking job in the first place. You want to blame someone for a lost job blame yourself for not being valuable enough and then blame the company. You want H1Bs to be paid the same? Organize and work with them to make sure everyone is paid the same like the law says they're supposed to be.

                            But see as a brown person I've seen enough folks talk about people taking other folks jobs to see that when bullshit like this is peddled (pretending that the H1B program is significant and that they're all Indians in the IT field and that they're all incompetent) that in many instances it's simply a stand in for something else.

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 04:09:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •   brown person (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Clem Yeobright, numen

                            Hi JayGR,

                             Are you a brown person?

                             I'm a white person.   Please, don't hate me for being white.  I was just born this way.  Can't help it;  it's just the genes.  Please accept me the way I am.  Thank you.

                          •  As a "brown person"?!? (3+ / 0-)

                            Well, if you had been a Black person or a woman, you would have been more and more likely to be seen in the ranks of Information Technology ten and fifteen years ago as the numbers of Blacks, women, and other minorities were steadily increasing, and there was a wide range of ages.

                            Then came the age of "cheap labor", and minorities became "last hired first fired", and most had to leave the field.  Which is why now in IT you primarily find some white guys in their mid-twenties in management track, and many dead end contract jobs populated by H1Bs, about half of which are twenty-something Indians, mostly of the (upper) Brahmin caste (which is India's version of racism).

                            You don't demonstrate affirmative action by replacing a diversity of races, genders, and ages with young, upper-caste males, whether they are Indian or American.

                            So how about you stop peddling your own bullshill and provide us some numbers that show us just how many of these H1Bs are members of the Shudra (lower) caste or dalits (untouchables).

                  •  Where did you get the idea that a replacement (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Clem Yeobright, numen, bgblcklab1

                    actually has to be skilled or competent?

                    The bean counters place no value on experience. They think that one warm body is an good as another. Then they wonder why their products have become garbage.

                    The only people who are happy with their health insurance plan, haven't used it yet.

                    by Hens Teeth on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:23:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Competence?!? (3+ / 0-)

                      A couple years ago my borker (contract broker = pimp) took me to lunch to see how things were going (to pump me for information that could lead to him making more placements).  I mentioned that companies didn't seem to care much any more about skill and experience, but only cared about paying the lowest hourly rates.

                      His reply was that many companies are telling contract agencies that they want "unit pricing" where they pay the same rate for any warm body, no matter what the IT area (Visual Basic programmers should get the same rate as Java or SAP), nor skill level, nor level of experience.

                      We truly are seen as a commodity with no differences at all taken into account.  Even when buying screws and washers, the buyers distinguish between size and materials.

                      •  Yep. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        uscitizenvoter, numen

                        One of my faves is when I was interviewed on a Thursday by an IT dept that was in deep shit: the corp was in danger of losing a major client because their app was taking 12 minutes to load and they couldn't figure it out. "I know what the problem is", I said, without even seeing it. I started work Monday morning and Monday noon delivered them back their app with a 12-second load time - and no loss of functionality. (You probably can guess what they were doing wrong.)

                        Another place had taken bids to convert a small app from DOS to Windows and was faced with something like $100k min. I looked at it and told them they were just swapping UIs and most of their DOS code could be saved as it was and we could do it for about $10k. After I brought that home, of course, they appreciated Windows and we added numerous enhancements so that I ended up with about $25k on the deal.

                        Recently I was given an sp written by 'competents' off-shore that was taking an hour 40 minutes; I brought it down to 58 seconds, a full 99% reduction! (Suggestion: try taking a 58-sec query and making it take 6000 seconds without any waits or pauses ...)

                        Am I a commodity? But yes, that's their dream ...

                        You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                        by Clem Yeobright on Sat Nov 29, 2008 at 07:08:09 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Is this how a competent lawyer checks facts?? (4+ / 0-)

                Just where did you look?  If you had simply googled
                "h1b prevailing wage database" you would have come to
                their Frequently Asked Questions where you would have found

                1. Question: How do employers get a prevailing wage if filing an H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 Labor Condition Application?

                Answer: The Immigration and Nationality Act provides that, unlike the other labor certification programs, the employer has the option of using one of three sources: (1) requesting a prevailing wage determination from the appropriate SWA; (2) using a survey conducted by an independent authoritative source; or (3) using another legitimate source of information.

                (And they have several subvariations...)

                And you would have found:

                1. Question: What is the difference between the four wage levels?

                Answer: When the OES survey is used to determine the prevailing wage, the wage rate will be based on four wage levels corresponding with experience, education, and the level of supervision. The Prevailing Wage Determination Policy Guidance for Nonagricultural Immigration Programs provides the step-by-step procedure for selecting the appropriate wage level for prevailing wage purposes. However, the step-by-step procedure is not intended to be applied in an automated fashion. The wage level chosen should be consistent with the wage level definitions.

                Level I (entry) ...

                Level II (qualified) ..

                Level III (experienced) ...

                Level IV (fully competent)...

                I am amazed that a competent lawyer would have had trouble spending thirty seconds doing such basic research.

                •  FTR: He never said he was 'competent' (4+ / 0-)

                  He just said he was experienced and above entry-level.

                  Level III, at best.

                  You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                  by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:07:44 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Nah (0+ / 0-)

                  That wasn't here so it would have taken more than 30 seconds.

                  I like that "fully competent" people can be so easily replaced by "entry level" people. Perhaps they're not fully competent.

                  Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                  by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:38:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  the real incompetents... (4+ / 0-)

                    The people doing the replacing are the ones who are most definitely "not fully competent"...that's why so many project are failing now.

                    Back when I was managing projects I never had one come in late, over budget, or fail to work.  Not so with the replacements...

                    •  If projects are failing then (0+ / 0-)

                      why are companies utilizing the services of the incompetent foreigners?

                      Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                      by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:46:08 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Don't know. Why did they invest in MBSs? (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Hens Teeth, uscitizenvoter, numen

                        Re failed projects: "Whew! We blew $5 million, but it could have been $15 million if we had used in-house developers. Guess I deserve a big bonus for those savings, don't I?"

                        You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                        by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:53:42 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Odd that they (0+ / 0-)

                          would conclude that a project would have similarly failed with fully competent Americans.

                          Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                          by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:56:13 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Not conclude. Assert. Contend. Aver. Argue. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hens Teeth, numen, IT Professional

                            You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:05:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Show me. (0+ / 0-)

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:08:06 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Show you that you don't 'conclude' predictions? (0+ / 0-)

                            You want me to refer you to a dictionary?



                            You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:34:00 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Show me where this has (0+ / 0-)

                            ever been asserted in such a manner.

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:36:04 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Now you're just jerking us around (4+ / 0-)

                            You've made no argument that H1-Bs benefit the economy or the nation, so either (a) they are an insignificant share of IT employment and can be eliminated without a problem, or (b) they are a significant factor in the economy and an irritant to your fellow-citizens and can be eliminated just for that reason.

                            Works for me! Thanks for playing!

                            You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 02:08:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Jerking you around? (0+ / 0-)

                            When someone claims that some corporate guy says that they lost less money than they would have because they used H1B employees for a failed project they should provide facts.

                            Your comment doesn't seem to apply to mine. Perhaps it was meant for some other comment.

                            Anyway, I see no need to eliminate them. In fact, I'd put Ellis Island style entryways at each of our borders and coasts. I like immigrants.

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 04:04:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I like immigrants too. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            numen, IT Professional

                            And I'd be content with a single world labor pool where everyone's rights were the same everywhere. I - and most of the people in this thread - would do great in that environment, where I'm guessing you would be flipping burgers somewhere like South Ossetia once U.S. law becomes an anachronism.

                            That's not what's being argued here, and the difference between immigrants and gastfarben has been emphasized over and over again. Equal pay for equal work everywhere, and let the best man win!

                            You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 04:17:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •   Ellis Island entryways (3+ / 0-)

                            Are you Rep. Mark Pence, the Republican.  He (or You?) spouted that really awful idea of putting up "Ellis Island" type of ports of entry to further flood our labor markets with mostly third-world cheap labor.  My, how patriotic of you.

                            Since you may not get to reading Thomas Frank's book, The Wrecking Crew,  let me put it to you straight.  We're never going to let this country become what Abramoff and his crony lobbying buddies did to Saipan, in the Northern Marianas.

                            Let me spell it out to you JayGR:  We will not allow such bad trade and labor policies to further accelerate in our country.  You can learn, and get on board with progressive labor and economic policies, or you will be viewed in the same light as those who Thomas Frank describes in his chapter, "The Bantustan that Roared"    OR worse viewed in the same light as  a John Walker, Alrich Ames, Robert Hanssen.

                          •  Let me explain. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter, IT Professional

                            I, as many others here, am comfortable within the 80x86 chipset - hardware.

                            You, like many of the H1-Bs, are knowledgable and competent within a construct based on a structure, like intellectual parasites. Take away your Cobol compiler and you have to find another host (e.g., Java), or die; or take away your U.S. law and you are lost.

                            Many of us have several times been through the equivalent of scrapping the entire U.S. code every 5 years to introduce a new one, and we have survived - despite the guest-worker competition. I've seen nothing to suggest that you could do the same. Think you could?

                            You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 05:55:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  because (3+ / 0-)

                        Because managers are no longer trained how do their jobs, and they can no longer judge quality.  These days managers work on a project, then move on to another as soon as it is turned over and before it collapses, so the failure is on the head of the newbie manager who got stuck with maintenance on it.

                        Management is totally incompetent now, which is why they hire for cost rather than quality and get guestworkers or offshores.  Upper management is worse, which is why middle managers stay in their jobs instead of being the first ones to be offshored...but I expect that to change soon...and about damn time.

                        •  It would seem then that businesses (0+ / 0-)

                          would simply fail in that case. Is that what's happening? Considering that there are millions of IT jobs how does 1% of that create such a drastic effect? Or perhaps they're also hiring straight from college Americans as well and doing the same thing?

                          Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                          by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 11:59:48 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  yes. it would. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Clem Yeobright, uscitizenvoter

                            Have you had a look at the Dow Jones and the S&P 500 recently?

                            Yes, the companies, many of which have become totally filled with guestworkers, are now collapsing.

                            Oh, and as I already showed, your 1% figure is totally bogus.  Over a third of IT jobs have been replaced by guestworkers.  The 1% is for all jobs in the country, including changing bedsheets and asking, "Would you like fries with that?"  

                          •  So the Dow Jones and S&P 500 are falling (0+ / 0-)

                            because of the H1B program? That's amusing.

                            Show me these companies which are totally filled with guestworkers who are not collapsing.

                            Nah. You didn't show me anything with regards to the 1% figure.

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:29:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Clearly, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            uscitizenvoter, numen

                            you have not been following the economy lately.  Check out Best Buy for instance, or CitiCorp, must I go on?

                          •  You must go on and you must (0+ / 0-)

                            tie that into the H1B program and perhaps you can do some magic on this while you're at it.

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 01:11:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •   Hey, JayGR Do you know Stewie Anderson? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            numen, bgblcklab1, IT Professional

                            Hey JayGR,  

                            You are SOO busted.   Stewie is an OBVIOUS shill for the corporate cheap foreign labor crowd.   The fact that you would even mention his "study" shows your bias.   Or perhaps you can explain why you would even mention anything to do with that asshole-traitor anderson.  Remember Harris Miller?   Same ilk.  Remember Jim Webb beat him in the Dem senate primary?

                            You can put Stewie Anderson in the same category as Abramoff.   Read Thomas Frank's book,  The Wrecking Crew.  

                          •  No I don't but apparently the Google does. (0+ / 0-)

                            How Redstate of you to attack the messenger!

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 03:57:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •   further demonstation (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Clem Yeobright, numen

                              "apparently the Google does"?

                             Another demonstration of your ignorance.  

                             BTW, how would you like to buy a bridge?   It's just east of Manhattan; actually you can use the bridge to walk between Manhattan and the borough of Brooklyn.

                            Why don't you do a Monty Hall, and drop me a line?

                          •  hmmm (3+ / 0-)

                            That's not something in the general purvue, that's something primarily promoted by the AILA, which suggests more and more that you may be a ringer...or a shill...

                            As you well know, the study is bunk.  They see that a company hired five janitors and one H1B and conclude that they hired the five janitors because of the H1B.  No dice.  Just think, if they hired a million H1Bs, then they could expand the company by another five million, or billion...

                            Nice try, tho...

                          •  Interesting excerpt from the U of M article (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Hens Teeth, uscitizenvoter, numen

                            As with previous legislation, ACWIA 98 contained provisions that claimed to protect U.S. workers. In particular, a notion of "H-1B dependent" employers was established, defined to be those whose workforces consisted of at least 15 percent H-1Bs. Previously, the H-1B visa did not require an employer to recruit U.S. workers before filling a position with an H-1B (nor did the old H1 program). Now ACWIA 98 held H-1B dependent employers to such a requirement.
                            Yet this provision in the new law was doomed from the outset. The 15-percent threshold applied to all employees, not just programmers and engineers. Most employers would have enough nontechnical workers (marketing people, secretaries, janitors etc.) that even if their programming staff were, say, 50 percent H-1B, they would still not fit the definition of H-1B dependency. In addition, the industry put heavy pressure on the DOL to implement the law in a manner that further restricted the scope of the H-1B dependence provisions. It took the DOL two years to issue regulations regarding the provisions, and in the end only 50 out of 50,000 H-1B employers were declared to be H-1B dependent.

                            You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                            by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 02:14:38 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What's not something in general purvue? (0+ / 0-)

                            The Google provided it. Take it up with them.

                            You'll need to prove that the study is bunk. Perhaps you can prove that they hired five janitors for every H1B.

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 03:58:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  JayGR Please change your tagline to (5+ / 0-)

                            something more appropriate.  Here are some suggestions:

                            Lawyers rule!

                            How can there be a problem with the economy?, I'm OK.

                            Employees complaining? Don't worry, my law firm will help you replace them, with indentured servants.

                          •  Except that you're not complaining. You're (0+ / 0-)

                            apparently simply letting the employers abuse the law and making shit up. Still waiting for the proof that the H1B program caused the failure of Citigroup and the rest of the crap you spouted.  

                            Man. Some "progressives" make Archie Bunker look like Tim Wise.

                            by JayGR on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 04:01:04 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Material For Stupid People (4+ / 0-)

                            Anyone can write a "study". The great thing in the lobbying business is that it allows news outlets to say "according to a study by...", giving them deniability when the study is totally bogus.

                            Here the study claims "The data show that for every H-1B position requested, U.S. technology companies increase their employment by 5 workers."

                            If each H-1B worker request translated into 5 employees, the question then becomes did the H-1B workers create those jobs or are these companies just happening to hire 1/5 of their workers on H-1B. In statistics, this is correlation.

                            In getting value of 5.4 hires per H-1B, the study has an R-squared value of .0687. The author calls this "relatively low". In fact, it is ridiculously low, one showing that there is no correlation betwen H-1B and hiring. (The study's explaination of this low r-squared value is laughable, suggesting the author knows no more about statistics than plugging values into minitab or spss.) Physical scientists generally accept r-squared values of greater than around .90 to be significant. While social scientists tend to be a bit more loosy-goosy in this area, a value of under .50 is clearly a null result (Publishing results based upon a value of .0687 simply takes brass ones.)

                            The text here says one thing (h-1b creates jobs) while the published numbers show another (there is no correlation between H-1B and jobs).

                            As far as a lack of H-1B visas causing jobs to move offshore goes:

                            - After congress temporarily increased the visas quota to 195,000, Microsoft told its managers to find things to offshore. - Go to and search the filings for H-1B. You'll see all the foreign offshoring companies complaining that a lack of visas will hurt their business.

                          •  billg1066, love your analysis. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            You statistics guru, you.


                        •  "Wall Street hates headcount" (4+ / 0-)

                          That's how it was explained to me when I asked why I as a contractor was paid twice what the employees around me were being paid.  

                          Keep the 'employment expenses' section of the P&L slim and report the equivalent expense elsewhere and apparently the stock price stays up and the bonuses flow.

                          Doesn't sound like this guy has ever been inside a corporation ...

                          You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

                          by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 12:14:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

      •  Bullshit. (10+ / 0-)

        We had another case in Dayton where a guy imported a dozen Nepalese programmers, billed them at $110 and paid them $10. [He also provided room and board, renting 2 2-bedroom apartments and putting 6 of them in each.]

        Hell, I worked a project in Miami where the contractor imported developers from Canada, billed them at $120 or more and paid them $30. I was getting nearly twice as much on the same project doing the same job.

        You kids behave or I'm turning this universe around RIGHT NOW! - god

        by Clem Yeobright on Fri Nov 28, 2008 at 07:47:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Chinese students in US are required to send data (0+ / 0-)

      Back to the Motherland.  Does that mean we should ban Chinese students?  You have to take the good with the bad.

      •  Link? (3+ / 0-)

        Documentation of this?  For that is not legal actually, that might be a pure case on industrial espionage and documenting it as systemic would be of great interest.

        •  Here are links (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BobOak, uscitizenvoter, numen, bgblcklab1

          This is common knowledge.  I could spend all day posting links.  Here's a sampling from a simple Google Search.

          The BBC reported that China in the past 25 years has sent out over six hundred thousand students overseas to implement the policy aimed at developing China’s science, technologies and commercial skills.


          China's technology-targeting differs from classic Cold War-era spying, which pitted American intelligence agents against their KGB counterparts. Along with using intelligence professionals, China seeks to capitalize on some of the thousands of Chinese and Chinese-American engineers, researchers, scientists and students who fill key positions in U.S. industry and academia, say current and former U.S. counterintelligence officials.

          USA Today

          It isn't a classical KGB-like operation, featuring dead drops and microfiche passed in the night. China's espionage style is unique, according to US law enforcement. It depends on a multitude of relative amateurs: Chinese students and visiting scientists, plus people of Chinese heritage living in the US.

          Each individual may produce only a small bit of data. But collectively the network might vacuum up an extensive amount of sensitive military and economic information.

          "To the extent we suffer losses against China, typically we suffer them day in and day out on a modest scale of operation," says Paul Moore, who was the FBI's chief China analyst for more than 20 years.

          Christian Science Monitor

          None of this comes as a surprise to Paul D. Moore, director and lecturer for Center for Counterintelligence and Security Studies, who has long warned government officials and his students alike about China’s unique style of casual espionage.


          The simple acquisition of public information may meet the definition of espionage, says Moore. “China has a much lower threshold for deciding what is classified.”


          A senior FBI official told the Times that the program was focused on students and scholars because they were singled out by the Chinese government to collect information – especially in nuclear physics and disciplines that could be used to enhance their own military communications and missile tracking.


          Video (Chinese CSSA Spy Ring Exposed in the UK)

          All the operations follow the same pattern of inocuous sending of material from universities:


          Video: Chinese Student Spies

          Video: Columbia U Chinese Spy Ring Revealed

          Chinese Students and Professors Forced into Spying

          The FBI and the Chinese Spy Army

          Most of these people were not asked to actually act as spies, but simply to share, with Chinese government officials (who were not always identified as intelligence personnel) whatever information they obtained. Of course, it soon became open knowledge in China, and in American intelligence agencies, what was going on.


          •  Thank you (5+ / 0-)

            Yeah, I know this is true and has everything to do about economic, technology takeover and absolutely nothing to do with any racist whatever.

            Over on The Economic Populist, we make a point to be well cited, fact based and industrial espionage as an economic strategy is alive and well.

            If we had a directive, public, directly from the Chinese government I think that would be one hell of a piece of evidence, for as you note, one cannot say all Chinese nationals are spies, at least I do not believe that and to make matters even more complex, R&D is international in scope.

            I'm thinking maybe make scientific, engineering ethics and codes of ethics part of international trade agreements or something.  

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