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View Diary: NV-Sen: Reid is as weak at home, as he is in the Senate (299 comments)

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  •  I oppose him because he's a Mormon. (2+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    Christin, galore
    Hidden by:
    oceanstar17, joehoevah

    I'm sorry if some feel I'm painting with too broad a brush, but after the LDS Church revealed itself as a political hate group welded on to a goofy space opera religion, it's time to oppose the church on every front.

    Here's a loose analogy: The KKK has a religious component too, and even if you could find an individual dues-paying KKK member who didn't personally believe the KKK's hateful philosophies, I think you'd be justified in opposing him on the ground that you don't want the KKK to have any more legitimacy. I'm not trying to suggest that the LDS Church is as bad as the KKK -- they're not -- but in this day and age, they are both functional hate groups, and all the reasons that justify stopping one justify stopping the other. Mormons gave 77% of the funding and an even greater proportion of the phonebanking and canvassing. Proposition 8 was the LDS Church, despite their attempts to hide it.

    Political action groups should get no asylum from political retribution by also doing religion.

    •  So.... (0+ / 0-)

      ...when Robert Byrd gives a rousing floor speech about Iraq failures and Bush failures, you clench your fists and say, "Damn that Klan man!!!"?  

      It is pure bigotry to say that ALL Mormons feel the way that those who worked to pass Prop 8 felt.

      Good God, this website is getting more uncomfortable and more unbalanced by the day.

      •  Byrd is no longer a Klansman. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Christin, galore

        That's the point. If Reid were an ex-mormon, obviously this post wouldn't apply.

        It is pure bigotry to say that ALL Mormons feel the way that those who worked to pass Prop 8 felt.

        Notice I didn't say that. What I said is that the LDS church is functionally a hate group (in addition to a kooky space opera religion), and even if any given member doesn't ascribe to its hateful philosophies, having him as Majority Leader gives the group more legitimacy and should be opposed on that ground.

        •  You do realize that virtually nobody knows or (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joehoevah, thethinveil

          cares that Reid's Mormon? His status does not affect the (already poor) image of that church.

          •  Two thoughts. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Christin, galore

            You're right, I think. Still:

            1. I think there's a principal here. I'm trying to imagine someone saying the same thing regarding someone in a different hate group, and I can't. The KKK is too strong of an example, probably, because no one would join the KKK if they themselves weren't a white supremacist. Maybe the right analogy is to a country club that the politician joins because he enjoys the golf course and the company of the other members, but the country club also donates tons of money and lobbies intensely to make it illegal for, say, Jewish people to marry. I can't imagine supporting that person for Senator, much less Democratic Majority Leader.
            1. I'll admit that I'm concerned about the LDS church's ability to phone in for favors from individual members. Remember, theirs is a hierarchical, revelatory religion. Their leaders claim the exclusive ability to speak for God. I know this argument has been used against Catholics too -- fears that they'll be slaves to the pope -- but I think it has more merit here. First, I think most LDS members as a practical matter are much more obedient to their leadership than Catholics. When the manager of the Harvard Business School endowment fund had a particularly good year, then-LDS President and Prophet-In-Chief Hinckley called him up and told him God wanted him to quit his job, move his family to Utah, and manage the BYU endowment instead. And he did, immediately. Okay, so what? Well, it's true that politicians are generally accountable to the public for their actions, but the Senate Majority Leader is in charge of all sorts of parliamentary strategies and tactics that aren't necessarily transparent to the voters. Rather than just voting a certain way, he can prevent a vote from happening, or make it contingent on something else, or attach it as a rider to another bill, or make sure the relevant committee is staffed with people who are or are not friendly to a particular clause. And, frankly, given that the LDS Church has demonstrated such overwhelming hatred to gay people, and given that everyone is hopeful that some federal statutory progress can be made towards gay equality before 2012, I'm particularly worried that a phone call from Salt Lake City could cause legislation promoting equality to run into all sorts of mysterious snags and parliamentary dead ends.

            So I guess I was being pretty simplistic in my other posts, but I do think it's reasonable to oppose him on the basis of his religion for this job, at this time.

    •  I have to troll this comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joehoevah

      Put in "Muslim" or "Jew" in the title of your post and you would get a much different reaction. Reid isn't the "Pope" of the Mormon church, and I don't think that it's fair to blame him for Proposition #8 and what the leaders of his church did. Do you feel the same way about other religious or ethnic groups?

      I'm gay myself and didn't support Proposition #8, but Reid had nothing to do with what the Mormon Church did and the ballot passing in CA. Attacking him on the basis of his religion and refusing to vote for him simply because he is Mormon is just as obnoxious as someone refusing to support a candidate based on sex, geneder, race, creed, religion, or sexuality.

      •  You're wrong to do it. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        galore

        Put in "Muslim" or "Jew" in the title of your post and you would get a much different reaction.

        Let's try the substitution with the body of my post and see if it works:

        Muslims gave 77% of the funding and an even greater proportion of the phonebanking and canvassing. Proposition 8 was the Muslim Church, despite their attempts to hide it.

        Doesn't work. It's factually false now.

        Jews gave 77% of the funding and an even greater proportion of the phonebanking and canvassing. Proposition 8 was the Jewish Church, despite their attempts to hide it.

        Again, doesn't work. Mormons are simply not analogous to Jews or Muslims in this case.

        And that shouldn't be a surprise. If I wrote a post entitled "I don't support him because he's a Republican," and you replaced "Republicans" with "Black people," that would make a mainstream sentiment here into a racist one. The question is whether, in this context, the LDS Church is acting as a religion or as a political organization. If it's the former, it's arguably religious bigotry. But if it's the latter, it's guilt by political membership, which is completely fair, especially on a partisan site like this one. The above two substitutions show that it is the latter.

        The LDS Church created a massive, massive political machine with the sole purpose of stripping rights from people. I want to hold it politically accountable for that political operation. But because it's also a church, it claims that such accountability is religious bigotry. But it's not; I'm attacking a political operation that in this conversation is only incidentally a religion, and people like you who go along with the Church's argument are being played.

        Reid had nothing to do with what the Mormon Church did and the ballot passing in CA.

        Except that he presumably gave 10% of his income to the organization that rammed the amendment through. Take a look at this other post for more reasons why it's acceptable to oppose Reid on the basis of his membership in the LDS church.

        •  I honestly disagree with you (0+ / 0-)

          Do you have proof that Reid donated 10% to the Mormon Religion specifically to defeat Proposition #8? I don't agree with Proposition #8, but the Mormon Church was well within its first amendment rights to support it. Maybe they crossed the tax-exempt line by actively electioneering for it, but it was their right to support Proposition #8.

          And to be honest I'm really tired of the blanket attacks against the Mormon religion here. I agree that the church actively supported Proposition #8, but that doesn't mean that every member agreed with the organization.

          I'm gay and Catholic, but I don't agree with my church on issues related to contraception and homosexuality. I go to Mass regularly, but that doesn't mean that I support my religion on every 100% of the time. It seems like you're making that argument about Reid, which is blatantly unfair to him.

          I think that his being a Mormon isn't justification enough to oppose him. I'm sorry but I just don't agree with you.

          •  No kidding. (0+ / 0-)

            Do you have proof that Reid donated 10% to the Mormon Religion specifically to defeat Proposition #8?

            Does it matter? If someone donated 10% of their income to the KKK, or even to a flagrantly racist country club, would that be okay? Or is there a double standard for gay people?

            I don't agree with Proposition #8, but the Mormon Church was well within its first amendment rights to support it. Maybe they crossed the tax-exempt line by actively electioneering for it, but it was their right to support Proposition #8.

            Total red herring -- such a bad argument that I question its honesty. Are you suggesting that it's not my first amendment right to withhold my support from him? Wouldn't it be his first amendment right to support reinstating Jim Crow, or banning Jews from marrying? And wouldn't it be our first amendment right to oppose him on those grounds?

            You're confusing a legal right with a moral right. Legally he is allowed to support whatever he wants. Morally, Proposition 8 was bad, and the people who support it did a terrible, terrible thing and absolutely deserve to be punished within the bounds of the law.

            And to be honest I'm really tired of the blanket attacks against the Mormon religion here.

            Yeah, they're the real victims here, aren't they? Not the hundreds of thousands of innocent people that lost their fundamental human rights for no reason other than the hatred of the LDS Church. And poor George Wallace, too, while we're at it.

            I think that his being a Mormon isn't justification enough to oppose him. I'm sorry but I just don't agree with you.

            And in your world, "I just don't agree with you" justifies a troll vote, I guess. And yet, according to you, it's me who's trying to stifle speech.

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