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View Diary: BREAKING!! Chertoff's home cleaned by ... illegal immigrants! (217 comments)

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  •  if words are importand, read your own words (0+ / 0-)

    Considering that you can be incarcerated and held for questioning on suspicion of a crime before any charges are filed, trying to define one's legal status by the fact they've been in jail seems backward.

    I guess the topic must have slipped your mind

    we were discussing the difference between a "CRIME" and a "CIVIL VIOLATION"

    and that's the difference (thanks for highlighing it)

    you can be DETAINED and INCARCERATED when you are suspected of A CRIME

    when you are suspected of a CIVIL VIOLATION, you ARE NOT detained and incarcerated

    now

    what happens when the police encounter a person who has over stayed a visa ???

    same thing that happens when you are here without any documents at all

    you get detained and incarcerated

    in the case of illegal immigrants, the only distinction between a crime and a civil violation is made to make the government's job easier

    the burden of proof is lower for civil violations than the equivalent burden of proof in a criminal case

    welcome to where reality meets the legal world

    •  Missed another point Zapp (3+ / 0-)

      Many "illegal" immigrants do in fact have relief under the law.  An asylum seeker is "illegal" to you, but legal under international law and for that matter under US law.  I have known US citizens who were detained by ICE and later released.  I've also known immigrants who have been held sometimes for months without charging documents, or coerced into signing stipulated orders of removal when the law actually was on their side and when they would have been entitled to stay.

      I learned some time ago that an "illegal" is only illegal when their case is adjudicated.  Until then, it's a lot more respectful to call them "undocumented" or "without status".

      "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

      by ivorybill on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 03:06:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My robbing of a bank (0+ / 0-)

        would be illegal even without adjudication or arrest.

        •  Totally irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

          First, robbing a bank is a criminal matter; immigration status is an administrative law matter.

          Second, it is legal under international law (Refugee Convention) and for that matter, under US law, to seek asylum.  Some "illegals" are not illegal even if they do not have papers.

          I suspect you knew this, if you read the comment before replying.  But hey, don't let reality or logic get in the way of your knee-jerk response.  

          "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

          by ivorybill on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  detention = illegal (0+ / 0-)

        it's like the bank robbing thingy

        detention raises the stakes

        I keep tryin to splain to people that you cannot be detained under the legal standards required for a civil violation

        for a civil violation, the standard of guilt is "a reasonable argument"

        for a criminal violation, the standard is "Beyond A Reasonable Doubt"

        a person can't be detained on the standard of a civil violation, so if you are detained on a civil violation, you are being held on a criminal standard for the purposes of adjudicating your case. Bail can be required (or, as in most immigrant cases, denied)

        so Illegal immigrants are held as criminal suspects, for all intents and purposes, but their cases can be tried as a civil matter, so the courts don't get clogged up with thousands of immigrant cases

        it's a weird legal loophole, but trust me, I've experienced it

        and as to the international laws and stuff, in all my court room experience (mostly as a defendant), I've never seen it mentioned. And I've been forced to sit thru more than a few deportation proceedings

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