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View Diary: BREAKING!! Chertoff's home cleaned by ... illegal immigrants! (217 comments)

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  •  Missed another point Zapp (3+ / 0-)

    Many "illegal" immigrants do in fact have relief under the law.  An asylum seeker is "illegal" to you, but legal under international law and for that matter under US law.  I have known US citizens who were detained by ICE and later released.  I've also known immigrants who have been held sometimes for months without charging documents, or coerced into signing stipulated orders of removal when the law actually was on their side and when they would have been entitled to stay.

    I learned some time ago that an "illegal" is only illegal when their case is adjudicated.  Until then, it's a lot more respectful to call them "undocumented" or "without status".

    "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

    by ivorybill on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 03:06:12 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  My robbing of a bank (0+ / 0-)

      would be illegal even without adjudication or arrest.

      •  Totally irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

        First, robbing a bank is a criminal matter; immigration status is an administrative law matter.

        Second, it is legal under international law (Refugee Convention) and for that matter, under US law, to seek asylum.  Some "illegals" are not illegal even if they do not have papers.

        I suspect you knew this, if you read the comment before replying.  But hey, don't let reality or logic get in the way of your knee-jerk response.  

        "The red is going out. It's getting more bluer."

        by ivorybill on Thu Dec 11, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  detention = illegal (0+ / 0-)

      it's like the bank robbing thingy

      detention raises the stakes

      I keep tryin to splain to people that you cannot be detained under the legal standards required for a civil violation

      for a civil violation, the standard of guilt is "a reasonable argument"

      for a criminal violation, the standard is "Beyond A Reasonable Doubt"

      a person can't be detained on the standard of a civil violation, so if you are detained on a civil violation, you are being held on a criminal standard for the purposes of adjudicating your case. Bail can be required (or, as in most immigrant cases, denied)

      so Illegal immigrants are held as criminal suspects, for all intents and purposes, but their cases can be tried as a civil matter, so the courts don't get clogged up with thousands of immigrant cases

      it's a weird legal loophole, but trust me, I've experienced it

      and as to the international laws and stuff, in all my court room experience (mostly as a defendant), I've never seen it mentioned. And I've been forced to sit thru more than a few deportation proceedings

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